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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:24 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:
Are you willing to recognize that your views may not be universally shared within Buddhism?


What I described to you above is a normative definition shared by all schools of Buddhism grounded in Mahāyāna sutra.


The idea that there is no higher self or all pervading spiritual reality that can be personally experienced isn't universally shared in Buddhism.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:28 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:
Are you willing to recognize that your views may not be universally shared within Buddhism?


What I described to you above is a normative definition shared by all schools of Buddhism grounded in Mahāyāna sutra.


The idea that there is no higher self or all pervading spiritual reality that can be personally experienced isn't universally shared in Buddhism.


All is equal...how can there be a higher one?
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:33 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:
Are you willing to recognize that your views may not be universally shared within Buddhism?


What I described to you above is a normative definition shared by all schools of Buddhism grounded in Mahāyāna sutra.


The idea that there is no higher self or all pervading spiritual reality that can be personally experienced isn't universally shared in Buddhism.


All Mahāyāna schools maintain that dharmakāya can only seen or experienced by Buddhas. So, if you are a Buddha, you can personally experience dharmakāya. Otherwise, you can only experience nirmanakāya or sambhogakāya.

Some schools give the name "experience of dharmakāya" to an experience of emptiness, but they do not mean the actual resultant dharmakāya, since that latter experience is an experience of total unceasing omniscience that is beyond limitation. That is the experience of buddhas alone.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:33 pm

LastLegend wrote:All is equal...how can there be a higher one?


Is there a spiritual reality both within and beyond your individual self?
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:35 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
LastLegend wrote:All is equal...how can there be a higher one?


Is there a spiritual reality both within and beyond your individual self?



There is no self that is either the same as or separate from the aggretates, so it is an irrelevant question.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:37 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:I believe that there is a piece of God within us all and the purpose of Enlightenment is to become one with God.


Poor God. He's all cut up into pieces. LOL. Well you are certainly not the first to think what you think. That's what 1 bil Hindus say too. But you have to understand Buddhism is very different.


Was Buddha a Buddhist? Whether one describes the ultimate reality that the devotee becomes one with as Brahman or Nirvana seems to be a matter of semantics and personal preference.


That's because you don't understand buddhism. Nirvana is not becoming one with Brahman. Brahman is an idea about a being without attributes. Nirvana is beyond concepts or being. And yes, the Buddha was a buddhist, because he served countless Buddhas in the past and followed their teachings. The Buddhist lineage is beginningless.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:50 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
LastLegend wrote:All is equal...how can there be a higher one?


Is there a spiritual reality both within and beyond your individual self?


It is neither inside or outside. There is no particular place that it resides in. The mind is empty yet ever present.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:57 pm

adinatha wrote:That's because you don't understand buddhism.


Perhaps I disagree with your understanding of Buddhism.


adinatha wrote: And yes, the Buddha was a buddhist, because he served countless Buddhas in the past and followed their teachings.


The historical Buddha was a mortal man who attained Enlightenment, and shared that path to humanity.
Last edited by Serenity509 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby catmoon » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:57 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
catmoon wrote:I'd like to point out that there are quite a few of us who think there is no God in Buddhism, that Buddha is not God and that even prayer to Buddha is quite problematical.


What do you think of this video's idea of God?

Pandeism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRCsbO_rk4

I think that many people are opposed to the idea of God because of the image that's been given them from Abrahamic faiths, not because of personal experience.


Well, the video proposes a Creator and I don't believe in that.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:01 pm

catmoon wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:
catmoon wrote:I'd like to point out that there are quite a few of us who think there is no God in Buddhism, that Buddha is not God and that even prayer to Buddha is quite problematical.


What do you think of this video's idea of God?

Pandeism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQRCsbO_rk4

I think that many people are opposed to the idea of God because of the image that's been given them from Abrahamic faiths, not because of personal experience.


Well, the video proposes a Creator and I don't believe in that.


It might be a matters of semantics. Is there a primordial force that the universe emanates from?
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:07 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
adinatha wrote:That's because you don't understand buddhism.


Perhaps I disagree with your understanding of Buddhism.


Based on your superficial reading? This material takes a long time to learn.

Serenity509 wrote:
adinatha wrote: And yes, the Buddha was a buddhist, because he served countless Buddhas in the past and followed their teachings.


The historical Buddha was a mortal man who attained Enlightenment, and shared that path to humanity.


That's the view in some Theravada circles. But all agree the Buddha traversed the path for many eons before attaining omniscience. Just before attaining omniscience, the 10th Bhumi bodhisattva is nothing like a normal mortal human. From your perspective, a 10th Bhumi would be god-like in power.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:07 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
It might be a matters of semantics. Is there a primordial force that the universe emanates from?


In Buddhism, the creation of this universe results from the the collective karma of all sentient beings together. So, no primordial force, unless you are willing to call ignorance that primordial force.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:08 pm

Serenity509 wrote:It might be a matters of semantics. Is there a primordial force that the universe emanates from?


No.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:08 pm

Serenity509 wrote:It might be a matters of semantics. Is there a primordial force that the universe emanates from?


Nope. No "Force" either.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:11 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:I think much of your apprehension about the concept of God arises from however you interpret the meaning of the term. Is there a compassionate presence that pervades the universe? Is there a power greater than ourselves? Can we personally experience this presence?


Honestly, this isn't much of an issue for Buddhists who are culturally Buddhist or were never part of a monotheistic religion. It's more of an issue for those who identify as Theists, especially monotheists, coming to Buddhism. I would also point out that much has to do with how THEY, rather than "we," define or interpret the meaning of the term. Frankly, for many (most?) monotheists, your ideas of "God" don't square with their understanding or evaluation of the term. God, for many monotheists, is very much "Other."


I don't believe in Abrahamic theism. Believing in a force higher than ourselves isn't automatically theism.


Well, maybe...but calling that force "God" certainly is. Regardless of whether one believes in Abrahamic theism or not.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby muni » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:40 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
muni wrote:God creates people or people create Gods?


One of my favorite sayings I have heard:
"it is stupid to believe in God, and even stupider to believe in the species that created him"


Thank you. Concepts. Well yes.
Last edited by muni on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:00 pm

Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that Vajrayana body mandalas are used to promote personal identity with the Universe/Heruka.


How is this not monism?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Enochian wrote:Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?


Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?


Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N



Ok let me ask you this.

In the finality of Dzogchen, one sees the 5 wisdoms lights everywhere. Everything is the five lights, which are recognized as oneself.

How is this not monism?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:32 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?


Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N



Ok let me ask you this.

In the finality of Dzogchen, one sees the 5 wisdoms lights everywhere. Everything is the five lights, which are recognized as oneself.

How is this not monism?


There are five lights, not one, correct? Plus one knows the minds of others correct? So how can this be monism?

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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