Interfaith Dialogue

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Rakz » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:16 am


User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 2857
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby LastLegend » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:23 am

NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Sherab » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:32 pm


User avatar
mint
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby mint » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:00 pm


User avatar
justsit
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby justsit » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:12 pm


User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 2870
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:40 am

omnipotent means all-powerful.
an all-powerful being is not possible,
because an all powerful being would then have the power to have never existed.
If a being doesn't have that power, then it isn't an all-powerful being.
If a being has the power to have never existed,
the being can't use it
and if the being can't use it,
then that being lacks that power,
and again, it isn't an all-powerful being.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Sherab » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:48 am

@ Mint,

Please re-read this:
"If He is Other than Creation then He cannot be described, limited, or circumscribed by created categories or definitions." This means that there can no meaningful interaction between the Creator and the created.
If there can be no meaningful interaction between the Creator and the created, then there is not even an iota of hope that the created can ever know the Creator. If the created can never know the Creator in any meaningful way, then how can the Creator ever be definitve in meaning to the created? For example, if the Creator in truth, plays a humongous joke on the created by creating the created and portraying Himself, the Creator as good, while He, the Creator is really in truth, evil, how can the created ever be sure that that is not true? Since there can be no certainty regarding the Creator, the idea of the Creator is as good as irrelevant. (Note that here, I’ve argued against YOUR definition of what is meant by “other”).

Also note that my argument about the contraction of creation and self-sufficiency of God is logically sound since a self-sufficient God needs not create, and if you say that our existence is true, then any God that exists cannot be self-sufficient if the source of our existence is attributed to him. Go ask any one who studies logic.

Now lets takes your assumption that God is above man's logic. I assume here you are making a distinction between God’s logic and man’s logic.

If man is created by God, is man’s knowledge a sub-set of God’s knowledge? If yes, then man’s logic is also a sub-set of God’s logic. If man’s logic is a sub-set of God’s logic, what is logical to man is necessarily logical to God. So my logical argument of the contradiction between creation and self-sufficiency of God should also hold in God’s logic. But if my logical argument holds, then God’s logic cannot be God’s logic because God is no longer God under my argument.

User avatar
mint
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby mint » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:04 am


User avatar
Dechen Norbu
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 am

That's very well, mint, to someone who believes God exists. It's a matter of faith. If you try to turn that in some kind of logical argument for someone else to accept the existence of God, it will be called speculation. There's no evidence or logic argument that demands the existence of God.
However there is something that loses me. If that God is all mighty, then he is a sadistic. Otherwise he would end suffering. There would be no misery, sickness or death. So he is either good or all mighty. Our experience tells us that he can't be both. How do you solve this?

User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 2870
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:44 am

People believe in God because the concept of such a being has introduced to them.

This is demonstrated by the fact that if you introduce a divine persona (a god or other celestial creature) from one particular culture to an individual from another culture where that particular divine persona does not exist, that individual will not be familiar with it, and may not even believe in it, even if it is explained to them.

So, for example, if you tell a person who is from, for example, a Christian background about, that a chair spirit lives in your furniture, the Christian would wonder, "why would anybody think furniture has a spirit?" Because such a funny idea had never been introduced to them before. But the Christian hads no problem believing in a God, because that is an idea, a very concept, that has been previously introduced to them, and so they believe it.

Likewise, if you grow up never being told of the concept of a "god" then there is no reason why such an absurd concept should ever occur in your imagination, except as a magnification of the ego.

The concept of a god is absolute. And since it is a personification, it has the curious quality of bringing out in people both extreme humility and extreme ego inflation. So, this belief can have some very good effects or it can have some very bad effects.

However, both extremes depend totally on the assumption that a 'self' inherently exists, and this is a notion which is the opposite of that which forms the basis of the dharma, for the actions, expressions and qualities of a god can only be reckoned in the context of, in contrast with and in comparison to, a 'self' (atma, soul, etc.).

When it is demonstrated that there is no self, then nothing has been created, hence no creator. No 'self' is born or dies, no 'self' experiences the omnipotence of a god.

When the self isn't there, a god isn't there either.

There is a lot that god cannot do. God can't go anywhere. god can't know the joy of being pleasantly surprised. God can't acquire a new skill or learn from mistakes. And God cannot act logically or illogically, since doing either one would deny the other, and that would be an incomplete.
.
.
.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 2870
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:54 am

Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Sherab » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:10 am


User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:43 am

Every one is speaking of that concept, God, but noone yet has answered to the simple question ... what is it (or he, she), is it to be seen (or ear, smelt, and so on) somewhere, how do you recognize it is that and not something else ... and more

How can we discuss of something that has not be defined, or experimented with criteria ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

User avatar
mint
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby mint » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:38 pm


steveb1
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby steveb1 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:09 pm

mint wrote: "God's answer to the 'question of suffering' is not a logical discourse/explanation (cf. Job 38)."

It certainly isn't. How do you see it as an answer at all? Yahweh simply shows up at the end and does a lot of boasting about how old and big and tough and powerful and wise he is. He does not explain why he made a deal with Satan to torment the "innocent, righteous" Job.

User avatar
mint
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby mint » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:22 pm


Norwegian
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Norwegian » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:29 pm

If you cannot expect an answer or an explanation from God, why on earth would anybody follow such a God? Might as well be a devotee of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Makes equal amounts of sense.

The God found in the Bible is not a compassionate being at all.

Image

User avatar
mint
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby mint » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:36 pm


User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Sönam » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:46 pm

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 6312
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Buddhism on God

Postby Indrajala » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:02 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |


Return to “Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests