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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:55 pm

Serenity509 wrote:I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.


Stop kidding yourself. You think Brahman is the ultimate reality of Godhead. In Mahayana, ultimate reality is basically a void, not a sentient being called God. Buddhists look at the beginning of the universe similar to physicists, that it just sprang out of nothing. Buddhism is atheistic. The universe and living beings are made of elements, nothing more.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:As I said, your basic predisposition is Vedic/Advaita.


I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.

...


You think you do, but you clearly have not studied enough about Mahāyāna Buddhism to really understand what we Mahāyāna Buddhist think.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:57 pm

adinatha wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.


Stop kidding yourself. You think Brahman is the ultimate reality of Godhead. In Mahayana, ultimate reality is basically a void, not a sentient being called God. Buddhists look at the beginning of the universe similar to physicists, that it just sprang out of nothing. Buddhism is atheistic. The universe and living beings are made of elements, nothing more.


Somewhere I read the following:
"All kayas complete, unique, indescribable, anything possible."

I especially like the "anything possible" part.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:13 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.


Stop kidding yourself. You think Brahman is the ultimate reality of Godhead. In Mahayana, ultimate reality is basically a void, not a sentient being called God. Buddhists look at the beginning of the universe similar to physicists, that it just sprang out of nothing. Buddhism is atheistic. The universe and living beings are made of elements, nothing more.


Somewhere I read the following:
"All kayas complete, unique, indescribable, anything possible."

I especially like the "anything possible" part.


You know why that is? Because of emptiness.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby mudra » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:15 pm

I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.

‎1. Mahayana Buddhism (100%)
2. Hinduism (94%)
3. Liberal Quakers (92%)
4. Neo-Pagan (90%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (90%)
6. New Age (89%)
7. Unitarian Universalism (89%)
8. Sikhism (87%)
9. Jainism (87%)
10. Baha'i Faith (85%)
11. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (75%)
http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/ ... Matic.aspx

I honestly have no interest in chanting Hare Krishna, yet I would take refuge in the Buddha.


Not sure whether this thread is funny or just plain circles going nowhere - or yes, both.

Seriously serenity509 - you don't agree 100% with Mahayana Buddhism, because one of the outstanding aspects of Mahayana thoughts is 'sunyatta' / 'emptiness' which goes beyond mere selfless of persons. Nothing in the Mahayana works if you reify any aspect at all of reality. You might be closer to some Vaibhasika schools of thought , but I doubt even that.

"Would take refuge in the Buddha" doesn't work either without that premise, because one of the conditions is to completely accept what he taught - i.e. dependent origination+karma, the functionality of which depends on the lack of inherent existence. No inherent existence, no God (capital "G", of any shape or form, sentient or otherwise).

In Advaita you won't necessarily be chanting Hare Krishna. :shrug:
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:23 pm

In Advaita you are always thinking "I am."
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:31 pm

If you want to go Buddhism you have to
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:53 pm

adinatha wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Somewhere I read the following:
"All kayas complete, unique, indescribable, anything possible."

I especially like the "anything possible" part.


You know why that is? Because of emptiness.


Yes! I am not disagreeing with you that, depending on how one is defining stuff, that god and no god are the same.
I am saying that belief in God and Belief in no god are the same, and are the same for the same reasons, and because of this, a person who says they believe in a god and a person who says they do not believe in a god may, ultimately, believe in the same things, only one person puts a face on it, and the other does not.
take for example,
the following:

>^._. ^<

The atheist sees a series of punctuations, and the theist sees a cat. but they both see the same thing.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:57 pm

adinatha wrote:You think Brahman is the ultimate reality of Godhead. In Mahayana, ultimate reality is basically a void, not a sentient being called God.


Is Brahman ultimately a void? Is the personal aspect of Brahman an illusion to accommodate human needs?

adinatha wrote:Buddhism is atheistic.


Buddhism might be nontheistic or agnostic, but did Buddha deny the existence of a supreme force or higher power?
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Serenity509 wrote: but did Buddha deny the existence of a supreme force or higher power?


Yup.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:06 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Is Brahman ultimately a void? Is the personal aspect of Brahman an illusion to accommodate human needs? ?


The nature of brahmin is sat, cit, ananda, i.e., being, consciousness and bliss. Brahmin is not ultimately empty. Everything but brahmin is empty.

There are two kinds of brahmin, nirguna (without qualities) and saguna (with qualities). The former refers to brahmin as pure being, consciousness, and bliss. The latter refers to the personification of Brahmin as a godhead for those in the state of illusion (maya).

In Mahāyāna Buddhism, even ultimate reality is unreal.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:20 pm

In the twelve step program, you are required to find a higher power according to your own understanding. How would a Buddhist recovering from addiction describe his higher power? Believe it or not, there are Buddhists in AA.

The 12-Step Buddhist: Enhance Recovery from Any Addiction
http://www.amazon.com/12-Step-Buddhist- ... 1582702233

Mindfulness and the 12 Steps: Living Recovery in the Present Moment
http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-12-St ... pd_sim_b_2

One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps
http://www.amazon.com/One-Breath-Time-B ... 915&sr=1-1
Last edited by Serenity509 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Serenity509 wrote:In the twelve step program, you are required to find a higher power according to your own understanding. How would a Buddhist recovering from addiction describe his higher power? Believe it or not, there are Buddhists in AA.

The 12-Step Buddhist: Enhance Recovery from Any Addiction
http://www.amazon.com/12-Step-Buddhist- ... 1582702233


There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. It refers to the non-conceptual clear and empty nature of the mind of which is permanently free from afflictions and the source of all qualities associated with awakening.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. I


There are Buddhists who've found their own understanding of a higher power.

Buddha and the 12 Steps
Calling on the higher power of karma.

THE LAW OF KARMA refers to the relationship between actions and their results, to the idea that taking skillful or wise action will bring about positive results. In Twelve Step terms, this is a Higher Power. It is a force that permeates our lives; we see it in actions large and small. We can’t escape it or avoid it, and we can’t control it. We can only cooperate with it...
http://www.healyourlife.com/author-kevi ... e-12-steps


“Through their exploration of Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist practice, each described finding the spiritual elements they had searched for and that their belief in the teachings of Buddha was the guiding spiritual force or Higher Power of their respective Twelve-Step programs. For each of these six participants, Buddhism provided a framework in which they were able to consistently explore their quest for knowledge, connection and identity.”
http://www.buddhistrecovery.org/media/n ... ndency.htm


The Buddha's great discovery is that consensus reality is inaccurate. He perceived that we are all a part of the great dance of the universe, all members of a great Self, and not millions of tiny, separate selves after all. It is to admit that we have been under the illusion of our isolation, when in fact we are much, much more than we thought we were. This, for the Buddhist, is the recognition that there is a Higher Power. Once this truth is fully grasped, we can move on to the third truth: suffering can cease. When we spend all our energy grasping after what we think our little self needs, we perpetuate the cycle of our suffering. But if we can understand that all we ever need is provided by the universe (since we are the universe), we have need of nothing. Lao Tzu says "when we let go of everything, we have everything we need."7 This letting go is the active decision to trust the Universe, analogous to the Third Step, that of turning our will over to our Higher Power, for our Higher Power is sufficient to supply all that we require. Jesus told us to look at the flowers of the field and the birds of the air, they are provided for.8 A closer analog to this step in Buddhism is probably the Three Refuges. "The gateway to the Buddhist path of liberation is taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma [teachings], and the spiritual community, known as the Sangha."9 Once we have "let go" of our ego, of our trying to make it on our own, of our dependance on consensus reality, and allow ourselves to trust--to take refuge--in our Higher Power, we experience the beginning sensations of true freedom.
http://www.apocryphile.org/jrm/articles/12step.html
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:13 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. I


There are Buddhists who've found their own understanding of a higher power.


People believe all kinds of crazy shit and call it "buddhism".

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. I


There are Buddhists who've found their own understanding of a higher power.


People believe all kinds of crazy shit and call it "buddhism".

N


I don't know if you actually read what I posted. "Higher power" is such a broad term that it can include the Dharma, the Buddha, or anything beyond your egoistic self that you resign to.
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:17 pm

THE LAW OF KARMA refers to the relationship between actions and their results, to the idea that taking skillful or wise action will bring about positive results. In Twelve Step terms, this is a Higher Power.
Not in Buddhist terms.
...their belief in the teachings of Buddha was the guiding spiritual force or Higher Power of their respective Twelve-Step programs.
Not their belief in the Buddha as a higher power.
The Buddha's great discovery is that consensus reality is inaccurate. He perceived that we are all a part of the great dance of the universe, all members of a great Self, and not millions of tiny, separate selves after all. It is to admit that we have been under the illusion of our isolation, when in fact we are much, much more than we thought we were. This, for the Buddhist, is the recognition that there is a Higher Power.

Nowhere does the Buddha say anything even remotely like that. Notice that there is no reference for the abovementioned idea. You know why? Coz it doesn't exist anywhere in any Canon. This is not Buddhism but "John R. Mabry, PhD-ism". A badly put together jigsaw of traditional and pseudo-scientific views blended with 12 step theory which does justice to none of the three. Hardly evidence of a higher power in Buddhism.

Why don't you go study some canonical texts (or even a basic text like "What the Buddha Taught" which you can find here for free http://www.dhammaweb.net/books/Dr_Walpo ... Taught.pdf ) and then come back and convince us of your view.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:21 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: A badly put together jigsaw of traditional and pseudo-scientific views blended with 12 step theory which does justice to none of the three. Hardly evidence of a higher power in Buddhism.


Do you have an objection to Buddhists being in the twelve step program?
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:22 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
People believe all kinds of crazy shit and call it "buddhism".

N


I don't know if you actually read what I posted. "Higher power" is such a broad term that it can include the Dharma, the Buddha, or anything beyond your egoistic self that you resign to.



As I was saying...
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote: A badly put together jigsaw of traditional and pseudo-scientific views blended with 12 step theory which does justice to none of the three. Hardly evidence of a higher power in Buddhism.


Do you have an objection to Buddhists being in the twelve step program?


People are free, they can do what they like, including calling all kinds of crazy shit "buddhism".
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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