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adinatha
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:33 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?


Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N



Ok let me ask you this.

In the finality of Dzogchen, one sees the 5 wisdoms lights everywhere. Everything is the five lights, which are recognized as oneself.

How is this not monism?


I'll jump in and say that there is no cosmic consciousness to join; the dissolution into five lights is one's own elements; not the whole universe.
CAW!

Enochian
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:35 pm

Ok Namdrol, let me ask you this.

In the Bardo you are encouraged to view everything as oneself.

How is this not monism?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

Malcolm
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:37 pm

Enochian wrote:Ok Namdrol, let me ask you this.

In the Bardo you are encouraged to view everything as oneself.

How is this not monism?



You are asked to understand all of your perceptions as your own display. When you do not understand your own perceptions as your own display, then you engage in deluded subject and object perception.

It is not monism because there is no suggestion that you are perceiving anything external to your own cognition of events as they unfold. This does not mean that Buddhist view of reality in general is monist or solipsistic.

Plus in the bardo, you are discussing the bardo of dharmatā. In the bardo of existence one seeks one father and mother, etc., and takes rebirth again, etc.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Enochian
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Namdrol wrote:
This does not mean that Buddhist view of reality in general is monist or solipsistic.




Only in the bardo then?

Bardo is fundamentally different than regular life?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

Malcolm
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:14 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
This does not mean that Buddhist view of reality in general is monist or solipsistic.




Only in the bardo then?

Bardo is fundamentally different than regular life?



In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Jikan
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Jikan » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:21 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Serenity509 wrote:If that is your opinion, perhaps we should agree to disagree in peace then. One of the things I appreciate about Buddhism is that a wide variety of interpretations about God are tolerated.


I haven't seen very many interpretations of, on, or about God among Buddhists. I have seen much tolerance, though.

Would you please explain which views on God you've found among Buddhists?


I think much of your apprehension about the concept of God arises from however you interpret the meaning of the term. Is there a compassionate presence that pervades the universe? Is there a power greater than ourselves? Can we personally experience this presence?


You're avoiding the question. Where are the "wide variety of interpretations about God" that are "tolerated" in Buddhism?
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Enochian
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N




Ok let me ask you this.

According to Nagarjuna, the self is merely a conceptual construct imputed upon causes and conditions (which are also conceptual constructs).

What is to prevent one from imputing one's self upon the whole universe, rather than just one's body?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

Malcolm
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:27 pm

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N




Ok let me ask you this.

According to Nagarjuna, the self is merely a conceptual construct imputed upon causes and conditions (which are also conceptual constructs).

What is to prevent one from imputing oneself upon the whole universe, rather than just one's body?


Nothing -- but such a self is just as much a false imputation as the other.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Sherab Dorje
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:00 pm

You know, mulberries are in season right now... I love mulberries!
:namaste:
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adinatha
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You know, mulberries are in season right now... I love mulberries!
:namaste:


Did you know the Spanish got the idea for a wide-brimmed riding hat from Mongolian horseman and introduced that to Mexico as the sombrero?
CAW!

Serenity509
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Serenity509 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:39 pm

conebeckham wrote:Well, maybe...but calling that force "God" certainly is. Regardless of whether one believes in Abrahamic theism or not.


That is not true. Besides theism, there is pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, deism, etc., which all use the term "God".

adinatha
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby adinatha » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:01 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Well, maybe...but calling that force "God" certainly is. Regardless of whether one believes in Abrahamic theism or not.


That is not true. Besides theism, there is pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, deism, etc., which all use the term "God".


And then there's buddhism which is the absence of isms.
CAW!

conebeckham
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:21 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Well, maybe...but calling that force "God" certainly is. Regardless of whether one believes in Abrahamic theism or not.


That is not true. Besides theism, there is pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, deism, etc., which all use the term "God".


It is true. You said "Force" in the singular...thus, Theism...and specifically, monotheism. Deism is a kind of Theism, is it not?

Now, if you had said "Gods," you could use those other words...but then, you could not really talking about One Higher Force, could you?
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Fa Dao
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:27 pm

Serenity,
perhaps it would be better for you to approach Buddhism without any preconceived ideas whatsoever. It will be very helpful for you to not try to fit it into any mental constructs that you have developed from any other religious or philosophical system. The bottomline is that although there are those more modern writers who have tried to equate various aspects of Buddhism with notions of god, theism, or a higher power the Buddha himself was quite clear that ANY thoughts of a creator god, theism, etc is nothing more than a delusion. If you are in doubt over this there are people here who can probably quote numerous Sutras and or Suttas to back this up. If however you feel that you cannot or do not want to let go of the idea of some sort of a "higher power" that is cool too. Buddhism just isnt your Path. Namdrol, who is a very high level scholar/practitioner gave a wonderful suggestion in the first part of this thread...go study non dual shaivism/advaita vedanta it might be more of what you are actually looking for. Good luck in your search
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:29 pm

Serenity509 wrote:
That is not true. Besides theism, there is pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, deism, etc., which all use the term "God".


...none of which are compatible with Buddhism.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Enochian
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Enochian » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:31 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N




Ok let me ask you this.

According to Nagarjuna, the self is merely a conceptual construct imputed upon causes and conditions (which are also conceptual constructs).

What is to prevent one from imputing oneself upon the whole universe, rather than just one's body?


Nothing -- but such a self is just as much a false imputation as the other.



Of course for the record I must state that I believe monism is false because if someone chops some wood in Malaysia, you don't become chopped.

Also if one person becomes a Buddha, not everyone becomes a Buddha.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.

Paul
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Paul » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:41 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Serenity,
perhaps it would be better for you to approach Buddhism without any preconceived ideas whatsoever. It will be very helpful for you to not try to fit it into any mental constructs that you have developed from any other religious or philosophical system.


I think this is excellent advice for anyone - although I also think it is surprisingly hard.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal

PadmaVonSamba
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
...none of which are compatible with Buddhism.


Please clarify what you mean by "compatible".
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
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Malcolm
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Re: God in Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:57 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
...none of which are compatible with Buddhism.


Please clarify what you mean by "compatible".



If it is not compatible with dependent origination, it is not compatible with Buddhism.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

PadmaVonSamba
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 12:41 am

Re: God in Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:14 am

posted twice :oops:
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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