Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:00 pm

Democracy is a sacred cow and anything done in its name seems to sanitize away any and all immoral actions.

For example the democratic nation of the USA has been invading, murdering and pillaging numerous nations in both hemispheres since at least the post-War period, but this is done in the name of "protecting freedom and spreading democracy". It is no different than converting people by the sword to Christianity and making a handsome profit at the same time. Likewise communist states were insistent on class struggle and spreading "the revolution", and looked what happened as a result in places like the USSR and China.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:03 pm

Huseng wrote:Democracy is a sacred cow and anything done in its name seems to sanitize away any and all immoral actions.

For example the democratic nation of the USA has been invading, murdering and pillaging numerous nations in both hemispheres since at least the post-War period, but this is done in the name of "protecting freedom and spreading democracy". It is no different than converting people by the sword to Christianity and making a handsome profit at the same time. Likewise communist states were insistent on class struggle and spreading "the revolution", and looked what happened as a result in places like the USSR and China.



Yes, and both of these instances are a result of capitalism...
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:16 pm

Sönam wrote:... Proudhon's theories ...

Property is theft huh?

Meh. I own my body therefore I own the effects of what that body produces, whether that thing is three square meals, four walls, or a murder.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:00 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Sönam wrote:... Proudhon's theories ...

Property is theft huh?

Meh. I own my body therefore I own the effects of what that body produces, whether that thing is three square meals, four walls, or a murder.


sorry for the translation of my own ...

Property is theft, but just after : "If I had to answer to the following question: What is slavery? and that in a word I would have answered 'it is murder', my thought would have been understood at first ... why to that other question, what is property? could I not answer the same way: it is theft, without having the certitude not to be heard, also this proposition is the same that the first, but transformed?"

Did you read Prudhon ... or just some quotations

"I will conclusively prove that property, when she would be fair and possible, would have for necessary condition equality."

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:12 am

and because You touched me ...

"Whoever lays his hand on me to govern me is a usurper and tyrant, and I declare him my enemy"

"Property, acting by exclusion and encroachment, while population was increasing, has been the life-principle and definitive cause of all revolutions. Religious wars, and wars of conquest, when they have stopped short of the extermination of races, have been only accidental disturbances, soon repaired by the mathematical progression of the life of nations. The downfall and death of societies are due to the power of accumulation possessed by property."

"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."

:applause:

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:43 am

Sönam wrote:Did you read Prudhon ... or just some quotations

I haven't read him. In fact the only libertarian socialist I have read is Chomsky. But thank you for the quotes I will look into it.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:53 am

Uuuuummmm... Proudhon was an Anarchist not a libertarian socialist. Gramsci, for example, was a libertarian socialist.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:50 am

I need money. Which dude can give me money? Socialist? Communist? I think these two are broke asses.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:41 am

LastLegend wrote:I need money. Which dude can give me money? Socialist? Communist? I think these two are broke asses.
Last I looked capitalist US had a foreign debt of $14 trillion (one trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000) (96% of GDP) and was looking at defaulting on its obligations if it didn't get its shit together by mid August.

I wouldn't go knocking on that door for money!

Same goes for the UK

Actually Bulgaria has the lowest external debt to GDP ratio in the world and Saudi Arabia and South Africa have the lowest total amount of external debt in the world (oh yeah India too).

You want money, that's where you gotta go.
:namaste:

PS Russia (which ceased being a Communist state in 1991, ie get over it!) has an external debt of $600,000 million (ie not even one trillion dollars) and an external debt to GDP ratio of only 1%! China (apparently Communist) only owes $600 billion and has a external debt to GDP ratio of 8.65%. So LL my friend, maybe you should go to the "Commies" to ask for money! Actually that's what the US did anyway, did you know that the US owes China $1.2 trillion?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:43 am

LastLegend wrote:I need money. Which dude can give me money? Socialist? Communist? I think these two are broke asses.


do not have biased opinion because your country was under a regime that called itself communist, but has nothing to do with Marx's theories (and I'm not in favor of Marx's theory)

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:45 am

gregkavarnos wrote:...
Russia (which ceased being a Communist state in 1991, ie get over it!)


Russia has never been a communist state, in terms of Marx's theory ... Lenin did biased from start

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Uuuuummmm... Proudhon was an Anarchist not a libertarian socialist. Gramsci, for example, was a libertarian socialist.
:namaste:


Almighty wikipedia:

"Proudhon called himself a socialist, but he opposed state ownership of capital goods in favour of ownership by workers themselves in associations. This makes him one of the first theorists of libertarian socialism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon

But like I say I haven't read him myself.

I have my antenna out regarding this issue at the moment as it happens because I'm wrestling with individualist versus social anarchism. I've read some of the former but not a lot of the latter although I am enjoying Chomsky - when he isn't droning on and on about American foreign policy.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:34 pm

I thought once how Theocritus had sung
Of the sweet years, the dear and wished for years,
Who each one in a gracious hand appears
To bear a gift for mortals, old or young:
And, as I mused it in his antique tongue,
I saw, in gradual vision through my tears,
The sweet, sad years, the melancholy years,
Those of my own life, who by turns had flung
A shadow across me. Straightway I was 'ware,
So weeping, how a mystic Shape did move
Behind me, and drew me backward by the hair,
And a voice said in mastery, while I strove, ...
`Guess now who holds thee?'--`Death,' I said. But there,
The silver answer rang ... `Not Death, but Love.'

Sonnets from the Portuguese 1: I Thought how Theocritus, Elizabeth Barrett Browning

:heart:
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I need money. Which dude can give me money? Socialist? Communist? I think these two are broke asses.
Last I looked capitalist US had a foreign debt of $14 trillion (one trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000) (96% of GDP) and was looking at defaulting on its obligations if it didn't get its shit together by mid August.

I wouldn't go knocking on that door for money!

Same goes for the UK

Actually Bulgaria has the lowest external debt to GDP ratio in the world and Saudi Arabia and South Africa have the lowest total amount of external debt in the world (oh yeah India too).

You want money, that's where you gotta go.
:namaste:

PS Russia (which ceased being a Communist state in 1991, ie get over it!) has an external debt of $600,000 million (ie not even one trillion dollars) and an external debt to GDP ratio of only 1%! China (apparently Communist) only owes $600 billion and has a external debt to GDP ratio of 8.65%. So LL my friend, maybe you should go to the "Commies" to ask for money! Actually that's what the US did anyway, did you know that the US owes China $1.2 trillion?


I am sure China is broke because US borrowed all it had. :rolling: .

Sonam. Old man. What you don't know is about 99% of Vietnamese who live in countries other than Vietnam hate the damn Vietnamese govt. That is the result of Vietnam War. What are you talking about being biased. Yes, Vietnam is a broke ass country right now with a lot of corruption.

Correction: You mean deviated from Marx's theory. From the beginning, that's where Vietnam got its idea from.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby ronnewmexico » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:30 pm

The idea we really own any land in a western sense is a bit mistaken.

The context of land ownership extends from the time of lords and such where the lords owned all and you serf or peasant used it as extension of the lord and payed the lord for such useage as he saw fit. It extends now to governent, by various basis from that conception to our current.
For instance...try paying not tax on your land and see who will own it...it is the state.

On debt....people look at debt as money owed...it is not. It is a statement on future movements of money....nothing more.
Debt owed is always a indicator of money moverment. Except in excess beyond the ability to pay....it is a positiver not negative.
The getting away from the gold standard during the great depression is per example...the nations that stuck to it as a absolute backer of currency and asset....the longer they held to this was the longer their recovery from the depression.

Check it out you will see the correlary.
Debt is a function of money movement, nothing more. It context only can it be negative or positive. Like dependant origination without emptiness othing moves or is apprehended. Without debt as vehicle....nothing moves. With the latest crisis we saw that happening...shipping was stopping as a function of the libor index which is the amount of interest banks charge eachother for short term loan....No satisfaction that there was a conditon of repayment possible(some banks held toxic assets of unknown amount)...directly resulted in no letters of credit being able to be issued to shippers(Ships in port)...suchly can things be moved of any sort on the basis of credit and anticipated repayment.

A simplifying of this thing to my opinion is always employed by those of power with means in effort to win support of the popular kind.

Specific to the US the perception of great unpayable debt of a level to impinge upon the economy and create great crisis...a means to destroy social programs and governments assisting of those without means....corporations being short sighted wanting a return (ideology wise) to Charles Dickens england..

Ciinton one previous president(in other things he was a lackey) .... balanced the budget and began producing a surplus in governmental income by one means...taxing the rich..it worked very shortly and marvelously. That is their great secret they do not want any to know about.

This song seems appropriate.......

Call them...whereever you live whatever country, call them, call your elected representative.... tell them one thing...tax the rich and hang up....the will not happen i suppose that any would do that...but I suppose it could :smile:
It is so sad and simple...they distract us.

If you have not noticed there is a universal blanket approach to this thing by the powers that be...it is reduce the government and its aids to others..
the universal push back has to be...tax the rich and/or the corporation. Whereever you live...they then slightly constrained will stop mucking about and destroying things to furthur their ideology so overtly.

It is a war...and must be conducted by such means as this. Nonviolent but pushed against fervently, where they live is where they are most vulnerable to attack.... .They act with one voice and with one thing....we must respond as well in kind....tax the rich.

This of course will not happen..humans think they are great warriors destroyers masters..they are not.... they are human and most vulnerable.
Being hit by fist, smashed to the ground, kicked at, and stomped..they think..well next time I will go get a tase,r or mace, or I will not go to this place, or I will hire a bodyguard, or any number of things....what is before us is the war of this thing economic....what they want is our money, what they carry with them,(their money) is a hugh flabby bag of fat...this is where the opponant must be struck. Not in his weaponry, his strong arms perhaps...where they are most vulnerable....the money. Strike at that and you defeat this beast in this particular battle.Then that done..you work at getting mace or other things for the future.
...but benig human and not warrior that will not happen, cannot happen. It is all that needs to be done though...right now for now.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Silent Forest » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:42 pm

Which countries actually have a democracy in which the citizens have a possibility to change the decisions of the parliament/federal council/president? The first country that comes to my mind is Switzerland and then not much more. And even in such small countries it is strongly influenced by greed, hate and fear. I´d agree with KDT that most democracies are pretty worthless and are more something like capitalism converted to a form of government.

What makes it worse, is that in the meantime it became clear to most people, that capitalism as it is lived today is predestinated to collapse - and there seems to be no serious alternative… The question is just how long it is still going to “work” (even without taking bribery into consideration). Politicians and presidents are paid (bribed) already before they are in their political position. America at least has the advantage, that it is more or less clearly communicated in which presidential campaign the companies “invest”. Seeing how the world develops really scares and frustrates me and often keeps my mind turning in circles for days until my SO pulls me back into the here and now.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:29 pm

An interesting Australian discussion/news report/ debate on the situation in Greece. At the 42 minute zone the Greek member of parliament just walks off, not having anything intelligent to say!
http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/i ... atchonline
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:15 pm

image003.jpg
image003.jpg (88.98 KiB) Viewed 246 times
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:35 pm

Silent Forest wrote:Which countries actually have a democracy in which the citizens have a possibility to change the decisions of the parliament/federal council/president?


Iceland, New Zealand, perhaps Finland.

Now forms of direct participatory democracy do not always work out: the French Student Movement in '68 and California ballot initiatives have a mixed review.

What makes it worse, is that in the meantime it became clear to most people, that capitalism as it is lived today is predestinated to collapse - and there seems to be no serious alternative…


WHAT? Please take a look around Holland, Germany, Austria and all of Scandinavia. Different but also closely similar forms of social democracy. Capitalism is used to benefit society until it fails and then society steps in to help people as needed. Holland is probably the best version and it's a version US libertarians can live with.

America at least has the advantage, that it is more or less clearly communicated in which presidential campaign the companies “invest”.


I'm not sure that is an advantage. America has the advantage of lots of inexpensive land where we can rebuild a society. American could also fragment as a society once again (which is it's history anyway - the US through most of it's history has been socially and economically fragmented).

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:42 pm

Silly Greeks! Sit down, hush up and do what we tell you to do!
Mssr. Sarkozy, Frau Merkel and the whole damn IMF .... :stirthepot:
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