Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:17 am

With such a situation, why Greek did'nt go into insurection? ... I guess that if it would happen in France, it would be the revolution. Maybe I'm wrong, it's no more so today.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:27 pm

Really? You think it is so simple?

Why did the indignados fail? Two factors: 1. Lack of imagination, ie no collective vision of what can happen. 2. Nobody is willing to die in oreder to avert losing their HiDef wide screens, holiday houses and 4x4 SUV.

If the only thing needed for revolution is poor people then 80% of the wold would be in a state of revolution.

Capitalism has fragmented us and made us lose our sense of collective identity. We cannot envisage something better for all of us, an ideal worth sacrificing ourselves for. We only look to making things better for ourselves and there's no use in dying to make things better for ourselves is there?

No ideology, no revolution. Just uprisings and short lived revolts. Like what happened in France a couple of years back, England last year and Athens last week.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:34 pm

therefore ...

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:44 pm

Yet another interesting and well researched documentary on the situation in Greece, a decent analysis of the factors that lead to the current situation plus some proposals on how change can occur within the framework of existing economic/political models (democratic capitalism).
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:43 pm

From the WP Wonkbook column ....

4) KRUGMAN: Austerity is a recipe for depression. "For the past two years, the Greek story has, as one recent paper on economic policy put it, been 'interpreted as a parable of the risks of fiscal profligacy.' Not a day goes by without some politician or pundit intoning, with the air of a man conveying great wisdom, that we must slash government spending right away or find ourselves turning into Greece, Greece I tell you...But what Greek experience actually shows is that while running deficits in good times can get you in trouble — which is indeed the story for Greece, although not for Spain — trying to eliminate deficits once you’re already in trouble is a recipe for depression...So it is time to stop invoking Greece as a cautionary tale about the dangers of deficits; from an American point of view, Greece should instead be seen as a cautionary tale about the dangers of trying to reduce deficits too quickly, while the economy is still deeply depressed." Paul Krugman in The New York Times.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:20 pm

Greek Police Force for Rent. Greek private citizens will be able to rent police services ranging from police officers to police helicopters.
Police duties have acquired commercial value. From today forth whomsoever has money to spare will be able to police services ranging from police officers to police helicopters. See for yourselves… the price list.

From http://news247.gr/ (Greek language electronic newspaper) Sunday April 08 2012 10:06am

Via the unprecedented ministerial decision by the ministers F. Sahinidi and M Othona, the Greek police force has posted a “for rent” sign.
It was revealed in the Greek weekly newspaper "Proto Thema" that at the very moment that criminality in Greece has spiked so high that citizens no longer feel safe even in the confines of their own homes, Greek police force services can now officially be rented by those having the capacity to pay.
What exactly does this mean? That those that have the economic means, can now pay to feel safe. This decision also means that the services and personnel that are being rented will be drawn from the pool of police officers that should be offering their services to the rest of the general public.
And as if all this sounds absurd, wait until you read the price catalogue that was published in the Government Bills Publication.
According to the publication an individual can rent anything from a normal police officer for 30 euro an hour to a police helicopter for 1,500 euro an hour.
And, according to the Government Bills Publication, if you are a “valued customer” the Greek police force can even offer you a discount on the price of the services. The Bill allows a 15% discount for services rendered to individual legal entities concerned with public law (public servants, government officials, etc…) and for institutions linked to the broader public sector (e.g. telephone company and railroads employees)
For a mere 20 euro per hour extra (i.e. 50 euro per hour total) one has the option to choose a motorcycle officer or a police officer accompanied by a trained police dog!
And for those who wish to have even more options, and have money to spare, well they can rent a police car, a police bus or even a police speedboat.
In addition to this the Greek police force, given payment of the amount referred to in the price catalogue, can even be made available for cinematic filming sessions and even private social events (weddings, baptisms, etc…)!
For readers information the Bill, with the joint decision by the two ministers F Sahinidi and M Othona, was published last Monday in the Government Bills Publication under the title: “The rendering of services towards third parties by the Greek police force in exchange for payment”. This Bill outlines how police duties will acquire commercial value.

Needless to say that many of the ministers of the current government are Chicago school graduates.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:37 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Needless to say that many of the ministers of the current government are Chicago school graduates.


The Chicago School is a font of total evil. Mandelbrot quit/was thrown out of their program although some of their leading lights were his close students.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:40 pm

Are there any Aegean Island or mountain communities that are in effect creating a new Greece (without the civil war aspects)?

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:17 pm

kirtu wrote:Are there any Aegean Island or mountain communities that are in effect creating a new Greece (without the civil war aspects)?

Kirt
No, not really. A number of communities have reacted (in some cases open revolt that required police special forces to do door to door arrests and bring in special equipment) against specific decisions that effect their local communties.

A couple that come to mind are: the decision by the municipality of Attiki (which includes the capital of Athens) to open a huge rubbish dump near the town of Keratea http://www.google.gr/search?q=%CE%BA%CE ... 80&bih=685 for pictures.

The ongoing campaign against the expansion of mining facilities in and around the towns of halkidiki, Taxiarhes and Arnaia (near the city of Salonika in Northern Greece). Demonstrations by the citizens of the area were violently broken up by counter demonstrations composed of employees of the gold mining company.

Zoniana in the mountains of the island of Crete is another example. They have illegal marijuana crops growing all over remote mountain districts. When the cops went in the locals opened fire necessitating a withdrawal by police forces until special forces units could reinforce them.
zoniana.jpg
zoniana.jpg (10.68 KiB) Viewed 410 times
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:32 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
kirtu wrote:Are there any Aegean Island or mountain communities that are in effect creating a new Greece (without the civil war aspects)?

Zoniana in the mountains of the island of Crete is another example. They have illegal marijuana crops growing all over remote mountain districts. When the cops went in the locals opened fire necessitating a withdrawal by police forces until special forces units could reinforce them.
zoniana.jpg


And here I thought Crete was a nice, peaceful place.

What about community based solar/wind energy and the communal development of local industry such as software, international tutoring, tourism, etc? If governments render themselves irrelevant then the people need to create their own peaceful solutions.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:29 pm

Ok, so now the local coke dealer can hire a cop?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:19 pm

kirtu wrote:And here I thought Crete was a nice, peaceful place.
Crete has a "tradition" of gun ownership and use and a long history of vendettas. It is probably the least peaceful place in Greece. It is common practice at Cretan festivals to pull out pistols and other firearms and shoot them off into the air. I guess they never learned how to use fireworks. Shootings, accidental and purposeful, are quite common in Crete.
What about community based solar/wind energy and the communal development of local industry such as software, international tutoring, tourism, etc? If governments render themselves irrelevant then the people need to create their own peaceful solutions.
No such thing yet. Greeks are VERY individualisticly minded. An exception to this mindset is the island of Ikaria. It was used during the junta as a place of exile for left wing intellectuals so...
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:23 pm

catmoon wrote:Ok, so now the local coke dealer can hire a cop?
Heroin dealer. Greece is the crossroad for heroin trade from Afghanistan via Turkey. Spain is where all the cocaine comes in from. Actually that is an interesting question. A question that was raised by some of the people commenting on the original article. I will look up the Bill and come back with the info.

Some more humorous minded commentators proposed renting two squads of riot police and paying them to beat the crap out of each other, while spectators sat on overlooking balconies drinking beers and taking beats on who will win.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thrasymachus » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:22 am

The Northern Europeans clearly are gonna expand their imperial dominion in a few years to Southern Europe. Instead of using a formal occupation army like they would in the past, they will use debt peonage and local political puppets. It is clear that the Greek politicians who fled to France, Germany and other European nations during 1967-74 junta to Europe flipped from being American clients to European ones and changed their tact accordingly after their return.

There are lots of other factors like high local societal greed exercised through parasitic state clientèlism, but a big factor is the jump of the Greek political crooks in promoting propaganda that the benevolent and "non-imperial" Northern Europeans would solve their problems via the EU. In every other business, even under crooked capitalism, there is no guaranteed profit except if you are a bank.

I will not go into the falsity of the doctrine of participatory democracy in an unimaginably complex society via the weak social force of voting as a citizen.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Konchog1 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:59 am

"Blood and honor, golden dawn!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcYPqYhw8YQ
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:32 am

Financial dictature mades it ... Chryssi Avghi
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:42 am

I checked the legislation surrounding rent-a-cop and there are no exclusionary clauses regarding duties (it only refers very generally to what type of duties they can be rented for: guarding cash or valuable goods transfers, security at enterainment events) indivduals inelligible to rent services (ie it does not state that known criminals, etc... are not allowed to rent the services). In the case of renting services for "insidious" purposes (that's how it is phrased in the bill) the only penalty is that the services have to be paid for even though they will not be provided!!!

The Bill is tragi-comical to say the least. It's sole aim is to make money at any social cost.

Thrasymachus wrote:...flipped from being American clients to European ones and changed their tact accordingly after their return.
The new generation of the Greek democratic royal family heirs were trained at the Chicago school and have allegiances to international capital, regardless of its origin.

Cash is cash!
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 07, 2012 10:23 am

Konchog1 wrote:"Blood and honor, golden dawn!"
Golden Dawn (Hrisi Avgi) are neo-Nazi scum. Their media representative is involved (documented) in a chain of hotel/brothels. Pimps and gangsters. They pulled 6.5% of the national vote and thus a number of seats in parliament due to two factors: 1. reactive anger against the major parties as a consequence of their ineptitude, 2. an avalanche of media support that painted them as laddish patriots that help frail old ladies cross the road, instead of the murderous hate filled thugs that they are.

A clear agenda of promoting Fascist/Nationalist ideology on behalf of the media (who are also suffering financially due to the previous governments financial policies) who will obviously support the neo-Nazis over the radical leftists. They also supported open supporters of the previous military junta: the Independent Greeks Party (Aneksartiti Ellines) that took 10.6% of the national vote. A week before the elections it was reported in the media that their leader (Kammenos) had constant contact with the former Minster of Economics of the military junta (who is in jail) who gave Kammenos a book he had written outlining his plan to pull Greece out of the economic crisis. The former minister told Kammenos to publish the manifesto and give his (Kammenos) name as the author of the manifesto. This is the sort of scum that are currently inhabiting the Greek houses of parliament.

The media are overplaying the 6.5% that the neo-Nazis picked up and are ignoring the huge increase in support for all the leftist political parties (except for the Communist Party of Greece, 8.48%, a Stalinist party so not exactly left wing...). The radical left coalition SiRizA are now the second most popular political party in the Greek parliament with 16.77%. The leading party, New Democracy, one of the parties that supported the enforcement of EU/IMF directed cutbacks, has 18.86%. The "Socialist" party that ruled up to the election now has 13.18%!

Nobody will be able to put together a majority coalition to rule so Greece is probably going for elections again.

Clashes between radical leftists and partying Golden Dawn members have already started breaking out all over the country.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 07, 2012 12:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Capitalism has fragmented us and made us lose our sense of collective identity. We cannot envisage something better for all of us, an ideal worth sacrificing ourselves for.


A belated comment: you've hit a nail on the head here, GK.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Mon May 07, 2012 3:26 pm

Greg - I can't find a tabular breakdown on the voting results (haven't looked in the German press yet though) - do you have a link to a tabular view of the election results by party?

Found one at The Guardian this is a Greek media table and is easier to see on my browser here.

Do Syriza and Pasok results reflect urban voting? Pasok is Papanderou's party?

Thanks!

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Mon May 07, 2012 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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