Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

[kirtu]

The utopias you guys want will only ever be unrealistic fantasies.

Minimal economic and social justice is an unrealistic fantasy? They are not utopias but Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland are functional nations (as are Canada and New Zealand).

You want government instead of private corporations?

We already tried it. Its called Stalin.

This is a dualistic oversimplification. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland are not Stalinist states (neither are Canada or New Zealand).

The choice is not private corporations OR government with an excluded middle. Mixed market economies are the reality everywhere, including to some extent in the US. However private corporations have to perform a valid service to society.

Kirt

[gregkavarnos]

Don't extrapolate your experience in Greece to the rest of the Western world.

I'm not. You are saying that the US experience is THE experience and I am saying that the Greek experience is a crock of doo-doo! We don't want neo-conservative rule in Greece, whether that rule is Greek, American, German, French or trans-national. We do not want it!

You Greeks have noone to blame but yourselves.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. I never said that Greek people do not carry a share of the blame. NEVER! I have gotten into many arguments here in Greece when I have said that Greek citizens carry a share of the blame. They do! But it seems you have no idea about the international economy, international politics and multi and trans national corporations and financial institutions. No idea whatsoever.

Well, either that or you are an apologist. I don't rule out that option. You're just not a very convincing or well informed one.

[Tarpa]

deleted

[ronnewmexico]

I agree with T's sentiments about 100%.

As to the present we must be aware of what is and not avert nor shun it. If we do we create habit of aversion and shuning, closeing our eyes to things and all that. Bad habits are they.

Rationalization is also a bad habit.
Agreeing with Namdrols point....what we have is way way off from what is possible within the present construct of power, governmental and economic.
This could with not to much change be a pretty good place..not perfect but OK.

There do exist places peoples and economies in the world that are not subject to such disparity of income purvasive violence and harm. Right here and now as example has been partially provided in specific.
Looking for a perfect solution to things means always we aim to do nothing.

[Tarpa]

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[alwayson]

The utopias you guys want will only ever be unrealistic fantasies.

Minimal economic and social justice is an unrealistic fantasy? They are not utopias but Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland are functional nations (as are Canada and New Zealand).

You want government instead of private corporations?

We already tried it. Its called Stalin.

This is a dualistic oversimplification. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Holland and Switzerland are not Stalinist states (neither are Canada or New Zealand).

The choice is not private corporations OR government with an excluded middle. Mixed market economies are the reality everywhere, including to some extent in the US. However private corporations have to perform a valid service to society.

Kirt

This is quite reasonable.

I have nothing against this.

All these countries have private corporations, as you mention.

[ronnewmexico]

A bit aside from topic but....the disease is always me. No drug to alliviate tha thing. The drug they imbibe of particular choice of theday..... greed gluttony hatred...me is the impetus.

Of any recourse is perhaps the thought....this life is particularly short no matter how seemingly horrible the fate or witness of others.
In the bardo....they all will fly. Their me will serve them little in that place. In fact the me it will be the source quite obviously of all they suffer.
And suffer they will and do greatly.
It is not of free will they come to other births...it is of great fear and from escape to other from this me that hounds them is what chases them to that.
Running wildly fastly as they may from that thing they go....so they rebirth....not as they choose...few have fortunate births, but as it is the best they may find running full tilt away as they are.

So only sadness is their fate this life is so short.

[Dharma Atma]

I have gotten into many arguments here in Greece when I have said that Greek citizens carry a share of the blame. They do! But it seems you have no idea about the international economy, international politics and multi and trans national corporations and financial institutions.

If the Greek are to blame for the crisis they're suffering of, then their fault may turn out not to be very big. These international processes in Europe have to do with Italy as well.
It's called the market economy who's to blame. Both Silvio Berlusconi and George Papandreou have left their offices unjust.
IMHO

[Malcolm]

Naomi Wolf gets it right again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... own-occupy

Alternet's refutation of Wolf's post:

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/15 ... age=entire

[Ngawang Drolma]

I don't know. I was watching the news in Spanish last night for a alternative report because I don't have any particular trust in American news we receive, and five more people were arrested yesterday.

[ronnewmexico]

My appologies to the OP for deviating from post intention but...

I thought I was the only one to do that .
Yes the spanish news stations are quite superior in content and display to american news media.
Sad what once was a thing of intelligent design has become a thing of uselessness in america.
China even though surpressed and controlled..... objective issues of no political import to the powers that be....those also in reporting are quite superior to the pap the masses see on national tv in america.
Al Jazeera has its faults and controling influence but that also can be superior. Their coverage initially on the gulf spill in america was quite more found true thatn the corporate pap being spoon fed the americans initially.

Speaks unfortunately to the future by my take...americans are rapidly degenerating. Other places are maintaining or increasing mostly it seems.
Ebb and flow.

[Ngawang Drolma]

Yes the spanish news stations are quite superior in content and display to american news media.

Then I'll stick with that, thanks. Sorry all, back to topic.

Best,
Laura

[Adamantine]

To be honest I have not seen a single homeless person in Manhattan.

You live in Manhattan?? I do and I see homeless people CONSTANTLY.
In fact, often some are camped out on cardboard across the street.
If you actually live in Manhattan and have never seen a homeless person than you
haven't ever left your apartment. They are everywhere. Of course, if you hang out in wealthier
neighborhoods then the police make more of an effort to keep them away. But if you spend time in the east village, LES, Bowery, or Chinatown or ever step onto a subway your eyes will be opened.

One of the great things about the Occupy movement is it's existential solidarity with the homeless.

[alwayson]

I never said I lived in Manhattan.

And I think we put the whole homeless issue to rest pages ago.

99% of Americans have housing. Thats good enough.

[Adamantine]

Lets not conflate poverty with homelessness though.

VAST majority of poor are NOT homeless.

A lot of them are in prison. Or the Projects. But a lot are also homeless...you just clearly don't know what
a homeless person looks like.

Then of course, there's all the rural poor who live in little shanty houses that are in various states of disrepair or decay.

I've lived in both extremes so I know the full spectrum.

Many, but not all, homeless are drug addicts and mentally ill people who refuse all treatment.

I've encountered a good many completely lucid homeless people, just as I've encountered quite a few mentally-ill or drug-addicted wealthy people.

[alwayson]

you just clearly don't know what a homeless person looks like.

I don't need to know.

We have something called "statistics" "facts" and "data".

[gregkavarnos]

We have something called "statistics" "facts" and "data".

You know, Greece's entry into the euro zone was predicated on statistics, facts and data supplied by the Greek Ministry of Finance and verified by the EU ministry of finance. Just goes to show that you shouldn't rely too much on statistics, facts and data (or their interpretations). Do like Adamantine says and take a brief stroll through the neighbourhoods he mentioned and verify (or prove wrong) his statement.

[Adamantine]

you just clearly don't know what a homeless person looks like.

I don't need to know.

We have something called "statistics" "facts" and "data".

Yes just keep believing in that over your own direct experience:
there's never any corporate or political interests in fudging those things.
Oh, and election results are always 100% accurate too! And corporate interests
never influence scientific studies or data either!

[alwayson]

Oh right.

We should make our policies based on your own psychic omniscience instead.

[Sönam]

you just clearly don't know what a homeless person looks like.

I don't need to know.

We have something called "statistics" "facts" and "data".

Please do something for you. Put that post on your wall and everytime you practice, meditate on what you've just writen ... persons, with and without home, are not statistics!

Sönam