Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:33 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You need to investigate more deeply.



I guess you are generating your own electricity and typing on your homemade laptop.


even collective economies have laptop? ... this is not the question.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:54 pm

Sönam wrote:
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You need to investigate more deeply.



I guess you are generating your own electricity and typing on your homemade laptop.


even collective economies have laptop? ... this is not the question.



Actually we were talking about corporations.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:04 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:You need to investigate more deeply.



I guess you are generating your own electricity and typing on your homemade laptop.



Bread and circuses again. You are missing the point -- Most of what is wrong with the world environment and economy today is precisely a result of rapacious corporate behavior.

I can't educate you about this, but you can educate yourself.

The way corporations act these days is criminal. It does not matter than they provide goods and services to privileged people in first world countries (though the US is slipping quickly into a second tier nation).

What matters is that the free marketeer, radical capitalist ideology that they have sold to the US and Europe is destroying the world.

N
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:Bread and circuses again. You are missing the point -- Most of what is wrong with the world environment and economy today is precisely a result of rapacious corporate behavior.

N



I think you are conflating investment banks with corporations.

These are not the same.

Germany, the strongest country in the EU, has a ton of corporations and business incentivizing.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:22 pm

alwayson wrote:
I think you are conflating investment banks with corporations.

These are not the same.

Germany, the strongest country in the EU, has a ton of corporations and business incentivizing.


From where do you think corporations get their monetary capital?

Corporations, conceptually speaking, are not inherently bad. But you seem to have neglected the fact that banks (there is no point is talking about investment banks anymore, banks are banks) are in fact corporations. Moreover, you seem to have neglected the fact that due to moneyed interests, the market deregulate has done more to destroy our environment and economy than anything else. We can thank Reagan and his crew.

I suggest you read:

http://www.amazon.com/When-Corporations ... 235&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Ri ... d_sim_b_30
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:25 pm

Are you sure you want me to read those?

I actually thought Food Inc., was a POSITIVE documentary LOL!





67 one star reviews :jawdrop:
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

alwayson wrote:Are you sure you want me to read those?

I actually thought Food Inc., was a POSITIVE documentary LOL!





67 one star reviews :jawdrop:


Yup. I do. Eventually, you will come to understand that the type of capitalism we have today is very destructive, that is, unless, like neo-cons, you have a superstitious fetish for the so called "free market" (which we tried in the late nineteenth century -- it did not work out to well).
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:45 pm

alwayson wrote:Germany, the strongest country in the EU, has a ton of corporations and business incentivizing.


In Germany people across the political spectrum, except for the FDP, can be sceptical and concerned about the power and abuses of corporations. You will find this more heavily in the SPD, the Greens, the Left Party (die Linke), and the remaining Communist parties but you can find the same concerns in the CDU/CSU.

In general the FDP wants to turn back the clock in Germany and Europe to their imagined business paradise of mid-19th century England or to their second exploitative paradise: the US after Reagan.

The idea, often seen and read about in the US, that corporations only have the duty or purpose of making money and increasing value to their shareholders is regarded as a dangerously amoral viewpoint in Germany. Many also consider that viewpoint to be a slippery slope to criminality. No wonder since this viewpoint was said to have been taken by German companies and especially industrial concerns after WW II began with the result being that German industry directly supported Holocaust and of course aggressive war. In the general case, the view that corporations don't have a larger duty or obligation to society is not one that can be considered in rational debate in Germany.

And then after that, corporations and financial institutions are regulated in Germany.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Mr. G » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:29 pm

alwayson wrote:Are you sure you want me to read those?

I actually thought Food Inc., was a POSITIVE documentary LOL!





67 one star reviews :jawdrop:


344 5 star reviews. Great book. All of Naomi Klein's books are good.

The 67 on star reviews are disgruntled conservatives. heh
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:34 pm

Got "Shock Doctrine" on my book shelf, stopped reading it.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:04 pm

More new information, will try to track down an exact source ASAP: Private German businesses, involved in the field of energy production, have come up with an EU backed plan to set up completely deregulated economic zones (ie no national government authority) in Greece for energy production (read dig oil wells) utilising EU (ie not their own money, but money gathered by taxing EU citizens) granted funds.

Little "Chinas" in oil reserve rich areas of Greece.

I say China because I had the immense joy of travelling to "free-trade" zones in China during the mid nineties. It was absolutely horrific.

If they manage to pull this one off Greece will become the next Nigeria.
Nigerian-oil.jpg
Nigerian-oil.jpg (24.13 KiB) Viewed 277 times

I have repeatedly stated over the past two years, to anybody that wishes to listen to me (here in Greece) that this entire crisis (which I have repeatedly stated is political and not economic) has as its sole aim to bring Greece to the brink of economic destruction so that they will force public opinion to allow oil drilling in the Aegean Sea. The problem in this plan is the role of Turkey, since there are shared marine territories due to the proximity of Turkey to many Greek islands (here in Lesbos there are points where a mere three km stretch of sea seperates "Turkey" from "Greece"). That's easily solved though if they can get Turkey to invade Greece and then install a pro-money government in Turkey (is there any government that is not pro-money?).
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PS I was also thinking to myself today that as a counterpart to the acronym PIIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain) we can use the acronym FAAG (French, Anglo-American, German). Unfortunate homophobic overtones I know, but...
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:Yup. I do. Eventually, you will come to understand that the type of capitalism we have today is very destructive, that is, unless, like neo-cons, you have a superstitious fetish for the so called "free market" (which we tried in the late nineteenth century -- it did not work out to well).



Can anyone mention a better economic system than the "the type of capitalism we have today" :quoteunquote: ?

Proven in the real world of course
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thug4lyfe » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:09 pm

Why isn't more Buddhists the "fat cats" hence change the system from within? Instead withdrawal into the hippy crowd? Best way to change sheet is by becoming more powerful and influential.

It's too late for me to be a fat cat now I's a noob :(

We finally got a Steve Jobs in the West, but he seems to be more interested in his own cultivation and metaphysical talks. :?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:44 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Yup. I do. Eventually, you will come to understand that the type of capitalism we have today is very destructive, that is, unless, like neo-cons, you have a superstitious fetish for the so called "free market" (which we tried in the late nineteenth century -- it did not work out to well).



Can anyone mention a better economic system than the "the type of capitalism we have today"

Proven in the real world of course


The system of capitalism we had in the United States of America between 1945 -- 1972 -- Strong controls on financial industry, high taxes on the wealthy, etc. Better, but not perfect.

Since 1980, when Reagan began dismantling the New Deal, average Americans have gotten increasing more poor, and corporations have had increasingly high profits.

Since 1999, when the barriers between savings and loans and investment banks were dismantled, things have gotten markedly worse.

Greer's three economy analysis is very good. Read The Wealth of Nature: Economics as If Survival Mattered.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:51 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Yup. I do. Eventually, you will come to understand that the type of capitalism we have today is very destructive, that is, unless, like neo-cons, you have a superstitious fetish for the so called "free market" (which we tried in the late nineteenth century -- it did not work out to well).



Can anyone mention a better economic system than the "the type of capitalism we have today" :quoteunquote: ?

Proven in the real world of course


The social democracies of Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and yes even Iceland with their current manufactured and trumped up woes), Germany, Holland, Austria and Switzerland. These countries also have different kinds of social democracies. I'll refrain from adding my usual "Canada and New Zealand" to the mix.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thug4lyfe » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:02 am

kirtu wrote:I'll refrain from adding my usual "Canada and New Zealand" to the mix.

No need to refrain from mentioning New Zealand good sir :P
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby tobes » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:20 am

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:03 am

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Heruka » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:59 am

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:15 am

:D

Remember Orwell's Animal Farm ?
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