Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:04 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that the financial community, including the Greeks, have been completely and totally ignorant that the entire financial sector has been shorting European bonds for years? And that because of, and as a direct result of that ignorance, the pure, pristine innocent Greek government was raped by a bunch of ravening Wall Street wolves who invaded their country and krazy-glued a bunch of credit cards to their hands to pay for their enormously overweight diet of social programs? Is that really, honestly your position?
The thing is that you should not conflate the governments actions with the citizens. Now whilst it is true that there was a lot of unregulated spending of governent handouts the reality is that it was the government and their corporate stooges that took the lions share. The Greek citizens were ignorant (actually purposefully confounded by their government) of the financial reality. The Greek government is not being raped by Wall Street Wolves, the Greek citizens are being raped.

Also some new details are coming to light after the ruling PASOK party was toppled when they decided to go to a referendum and ask the Greek people what the course of action should be from this point forth. They replaced the government with an interim (but without a use by date) coalition of all the most right wing (and we are talking far right as well) elements of the Greek parliament and placed a former European Bank advisor and architect of Greeces entry into the Euro (he personally fudged the economic figures) as prime minister.

It seems that the deal is that 10% of the 6th installment, which apparently is to prop up the Greek economy, has to be spent on armaments which will be brought from Germany (the major lender). Greece spent 3.2% of its budget $10,000,000,000 on defence in 2010 (about $1000 per person). Turkey, Greeces neighbour and traditional enemy, spent 2.7% of its budget $15,000,000,000 ($240 per person). America, being first on the list spends 4.7% around $2327 per person. America, though, is fighting two wars as we speak.

Anyway, here is a short video from a Euro parliament session showing a statement from a UK representative about the whole situation in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:39 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Stat extrapolated from National Center for Homelessness adjusted for downturn. Average number of homeless people is about 2 million. Then of course there is the inadequately housed, and that number is much higher.



Isn't that less than 1% of the population??

If the American system works for 99% of the population, you don't mess with it.


But it isn't. Wages have not increased to match cost of living increases for 30 years. The average salary in US is 30,000 or so. That 30 grand is worth much less than it was thirty years ago.

Your argument about play stations and other consumer items is what the romans called "panem et circuses" i.e. bread and circuses to keep the masses appeased and complacent.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:The thing is that you should not conflate the governments actions with the citizens. Now whilst it is true that there was a lot of unregulated spending of governent handouts the reality is that it was the government and their corporate stooges that took the lions share.



Then why are the Greeks citizens rioting to preserve the old crazy spending, early retirement, free handouts etc.?
Last edited by alwayson on Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Stat extrapolated from National Center for Homelessness adjusted for downturn. Average number of homeless people is about 2 million. Then of course there is the inadequately housed, and that number is much higher.



Isn't that less than 1% of the population??

If the American system works for 99% of the population, you don't mess with it.


But it isn't. Wages have not increased to match cost of living increases for 30 years. The average salary in US is 30,000 or so. That 30 grand is worth much less than it was thirty years ago.

Your argument about play stations and other consumer items is what the romans called "panem et circuses" i.e. bread and circuses to keep the masses appeased and complacent.



99% of Americans are not homeless. Its really quite simple.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:49 pm

alwayson wrote:99% of Americans are not homeless. Its really quite simple.


That does not mean america is working very well for that 99 percent.

N
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:That does not mean america is working very well for that 99 percent.

N


Well, exactly.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:That does not mean america is working very well for that 99 percent.

N



So what country on Earth do YOU think is awesome?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby conebeckham » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:55 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:But it isn't. Wages have not increased to match cost of living increases for 30 years. The average salary in US is 30,000 or so. That 30 grand is worth much less than it was thirty years ago.

Your argument about play stations and other consumer items is what the romans called "panem et circuses" i.e. bread and circuses to keep the masses appeased and complacent.



99% of Americans are not homeless. Its really quite simple.


What percentage of that 99% actually own, or have any equity at all, in their homes? Compared with 30 years? And what percentage of that 99% are living paycheck-to-paycheck, only a matter of weeks away from precarious living situations, should their jobs end, because the corporation they work for has figured out a way to "downsize?"

It's not simple. At all. And just because no country on Earth is "awesome," doesn't mean we should accept defeat, or ignore the conventional problems we have. Though I don't forsee Utopia in our future, frankly.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:57 pm

conebeckham wrote:It's not simple. At all. And just because no country on Earth is "awesome," doesn't mean we should accept defeat, or ignore the conventional problems we have. Though I don't forsee Utopia in our future, frankly.



This is a cop out.

You all should name a real country that is your ideal.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:00 am

I like Denmark. Pretty girls and really really good bacon. What more could you want?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:22 am

alwayson wrote:
conebeckham wrote:It's not simple. At all. And just because no country on Earth is "awesome," doesn't mean we should accept defeat, or ignore the conventional problems we have. Though I don't forsee Utopia in our future, frankly.



This is a cop out.

You all should name a real country that is your ideal.


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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:28 am

Bhutan??
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:37 am

alwayson wrote:Bhutan??



I prefer living in the US. But that does not mean it is "the best and most awesome" country.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:32 am

catmoon wrote:I like Denmark. Pretty girls and really really good bacon. What more could you want?

Your not a very good Muslim homes!!! :evil:
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:37 am

Food_Eatah wrote:
catmoon wrote:I like Denmark. Pretty girls and really really good bacon. What more could you want?

Your not a very good Muslim homes!!! :evil:


No, I suppose I'm not. Dang.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:44 am

Sigh... I am not a very good Buddhist, pretty girls and bacon in the same sentence makes me think about "things" :emb:
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:09 am

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:That does not mean america is working very well for that 99 percent.

N



So what country on Earth do YOU think is awesome?


Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland. New Zealand may also be awesome. Bhutan ought to be awesome as well but they are not.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:59 am

alwayson wrote:Then why are the Greeks citizens rioting to preserve the old crazy spending, early retirement, free handouts etc.?
They are not. They are rioting because of the anti-Democratic nature of the changes being imposed on them by non-elected financial institutions. Obviously you didn't read what I wrote:
Also some new details are coming to light after the ruling PASOK party was toppled when they decided to go to a referendum and ask the Greek people what the course of action should be from this point forth. They replaced the government with an interim (but without a use by date) coalition of all the most right wing (and we are talking far right as well) elements of the Greek parliament and placed a former European Bank advisor and architect of Greeces entry into the Euro (he personally fudged the economic figures) as prime minister.
Many people in Greece are calling for the legal option of a moratorium on debt payments, a return to a national currency and national elections so that Greece can sort out its problem on the basis of facts that are coming to light about the REAL economic situation. The current financial bail out will not fix Greeces problems, it will (and has already) lead to further economic problems. The plan of reducing Greece to another third world EU member state (like Bulgaria, Rumania, Montenegro, Ukraine) so that Germans come come here for cheap summer holidays is not a plan that Greek citizens agree to. The government agrees to this plan because they are mainly members of rich poltical dynasties and will never have to deal with a 30% reducion in wages and pensions (which effecively has meant a 30% increase in inflation over the period of 2 years) .

That is why Greeks are rioting. Wouldn't you?
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:00 pm

and this is why Greeks are right to riot :

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(sorry, in french ... but easy to understand)
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby mañjughoṣamaṇi » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Also some new details are coming to light after the ruling PASOK party was toppled when they decided to go to a referendum and ask the Greek people what the course of action should be from this point forth. They replaced the government with an interim (but without a use by date) coalition of all the most right wing (and we are talking far right as well) elements of the Greek parliament and placed a former European Bank advisor and architect of Greeces entry into the Euro (he personally fudged the economic figures) as prime minister.


Like this fascist, and his neo-nazi pals:
http://exiledonline.com/austerity-fascism-in-greece-the-real-1-doctrine/

Of course this won't deter free-marketeers and libertarians from backing ridiculous austerity packages and the hooligans they use to force it down citizens' throats. Their hero Von Hayek loved Pinochet. Their voluntary society really means they want to volunteer to dodge their share of taxes and avoid the minimum wage standards accepted in a given society.
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