Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:21 pm

kirtu wrote:Homelessness in the US is usually a result of direct poverty.

Kirt



Lets not conflate poverty with homelessness though.

VAST majority of poor are NOT homeless.

Many, but not all, homeless are drug addicts and mentally ill people who refuse all treatment.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:22 pm

alwayson wrote:The amount of people who have asked me for money on the streets of America over the course my life, can't be more than 20 people. And thats being really generous.


I have had 20 people in one day ask me for money in DC. And that is not an exaggeration although the usual number is 3-5. I was quite alarmed on my recent trip to San Francisco. I didn't get asked much for money but it was in people's eyes.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:24 pm

kirtu wrote:
alwayson wrote:The amount of people who have asked me for money on the streets of America over the course my life, can't be more than 20 people. And thats being really generous.


I have had 20 people in one day ask me for money in DC. And that is not an exaggeration although the usual number is 3-5. I was quite alarmed on my recent trip to San Francisco. I didn't get asked much for money but it was in people's eyes.

Kirt



This may sound harsh, but the homeless are a negligble part of the population.

Its gotta be less than 1%.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:24 pm

kirtu wrote:.

I'm not sure if there is homelessness in Holland actually although I have seen Gay street kids who were also thrown out of the house and people suffering from alcoholism and drug addiction.

Homelessness in the US is usually a result of direct poverty.

Kirt


Common Kurt, today homeless is in every "rich" countries ... anyone can go to google, type in "any" country name + homeless, ask for images ... and count how many pages he receives.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:26 pm

alwayson wrote:
kirtu wrote:Homelessness in the US is usually a result of direct poverty.

Kirt



Lets not conflate poverty with homelessness though.

VAST majority of poor are NOT homeless.

Many, but not all, homeless are drug addicts and mentally ill people who refuse all treatment.


No that is what the media says but that is not true. That may be a profile of long term homeless though. I have not seen many people who were recognizably mentally ill being homeless in a while. It's mostly people who lost their employment and lost housing and can't recover either.

On a recent trip to San Francisco I did meet a man possessed with demons in a Starbucks. This demon possession was a result of meth addiction. That was common there.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:27 pm

Sönam wrote:I would have never imagined that vajra brothers could have such point of view, never ...

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Tell me Sonam you once said that you lived off the grid as I recall - what happened with that? Did you think it would be more effective to warn people about the dangers of capitalism by owning a computer, paying bills, using money, buying things, owning or renting a home, buying food instead of farming it, owning property inside your home, that kind of thing. Like, you're on a mission from God kind of thing, but for now you're kind of sleeping with the enemy for the sake of the cause?

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:30 pm

Sönam wrote:Common Kurt, today homeless is in every "rich" countries ... anyone can go to google, type in "any" country name + homeless, ask for images ... and count how many pages he receives.


Riiiight because there are only homeless people in prosperous capitalist countries ...

Oh God, you people are just priceless. You really are.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:30 pm

alwayson wrote:
kirtu wrote:
alwayson wrote:The amount of people who have asked me for money on the streets of America over the course my life, can't be more than 20 people. And thats being really generous.


I have had 20 people in one day ask me for money in DC. And that is not an exaggeration although the usual number is 3-5. I was quite alarmed on my recent trip to San Francisco. I didn't get asked much for money but it was in people's eyes.

Kirt



This may sound harsh, but the homeless are a negligble part of the population.

Its gotta be less than 1%.


Not < 1%. About 1% in any given year. And people can cycle in and out of homelessness. I think that over a person's lifetime there is a 20% chance of experiencing homelessness in the US (I'll try to corroborate that).

Homelessness in the US

As many as 3.5 million people experience homelessness in a given year (1% of the entire U.S. population or 10% of its poor), and about 842,000 people in any given week.[17][18] Most were homeless temporarily. The chronically homeless population (those with repeated episodes or who have been homeless for long periods) fell from 175,914 in 2005 to 123,833 in 2007.[6]


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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:33 pm

Ok lets accept the 1% (even though you admit that is for people who are homeless a part of the year.)

The American system works for the 99%.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:37 pm

Sönam wrote:
kirtu wrote:.

I'm not sure if there is homelessness in Holland actually although I have seen Gay street kids who were also thrown out of the house and people suffering from alcoholism and drug addiction.

Homelessness in the US is usually a result of direct poverty.

Kirt


Common Kurt, today homeless is in every "rich" countries ... anyone can go to google, type in "any" country name + homeless, ask for images ... and count how many pages he receives.


Sönam -

I was surprised to find that there was homelessness in Sweden and Norway. There shouldn't be homelessness in either of those countries. Cuba may have no homelessness (officially it didn't for a while). Iceland also should have no homelessness but it does have a small number of homeless people.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:39 pm

Thats what I said.

Everywhere has homelessness.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:41 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Sönam wrote:I would have never imagined that vajra brothers could have such point of view, never ...

Image
Sönam


Tell me Sonam you once said that you lived off the grid as I recall - what happened with that? Did you think it would be more effective to warn people about the dangers of capitalism by owning a computer, paying bills, using money, buying things, owning or renting a home, buying food instead of farming it, owning property inside your home, that kind of thing. Like, you're on a mission from God kind of thing, but for now you're kind of sleeping with the enemy for the sake of the cause?

Image


This is your litany, "owning a computer, paying bills, using money, buying things, owning or renting a home,". About that, on many point I reduce my consumption, long time ago I do not play that game. But what do you prove, I should not eat, or sleep under a roof (of course I didn't "buy" a house) and using a computer, in the kind of society we're living in, allow me to do some translations, stay informed with alternative media, communicate with peoples I like, and so on.
But is that the only argument you have ... we are speaking of a Main Rapt of the Planet by very sick peoples only interested by accumulation of objects and power to satisfy their ego, not interseted by others, and with very short views because theu don't even think of their own children. And you come to me speaking about gadgets they give us to keep us traped in their clutches.
No, I'm definitely not on the same side than those guys, and I won't play their game, and it's ok if I eat and have a roof and have a computer.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby conebeckham » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:44 pm

kirtu wrote:
alwayson wrote:
kirtu wrote:

On a recent trip to San Francisco I did meet a man possessed with demons in a Starbucks. This demon possession was a result of meth addiction. That was common there.

Kirt


Yes--and it was because the treatment centers, and the mental hospitals, lost funding and had to release people to the streets. Studies in this city show that something like 80% or more of homeless people here in SF have substance abuse problems, compounding their (other) existing mental health issues.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby kirtu » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:45 pm

alwayson wrote:Thats what I said.

Everywhere has homelessness.


I would like to see if Namdrol can propose a place without homelessness. Homelessness shouldn't exist in a social democracy because it has a real safety net. Also Norway, Sweden and Iceland are three of the richest nations on Earth by any measure (Luxembourg and Norwary are the two richest nations in the North on a per capita basis with Luxembourg coming in at #1 and Norway coming in at #4, #2 and #3 being Qatar and another Middle Eastern oil state). Perhaps Qatar doesn't have homelessness.

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:47 pm

kirtu wrote:
I was surprised to find that there was homelessness in Sweden and Norway. There shouldn't be homelessness in either of those countries. Cuba may have no homelessness (officially it didn't for a while). Iceland also should have no homelessness but it does have a small number of homeless people.

Kirt


Curiously (not so in fact), poor country have less homelessness, just because peoples are much more in solidarity. The poor in those countries give food and a place to others poors ... and I speak about experience (in Africa)

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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby catmoon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:55 pm

Ok, this thread has been more or less cleaned up, but many posts are missing.

There were horrendous personal insults, buckets of profanity and tons of inflammatory language. In short it was the worst cesspool of unBuddhist chat it has been my misfortune to edit since I got here.

It took me a full hour of wading in the, uh , cess, to get the thread into the poor shape you see now. I have most likely missed stuff. Let me know if you spot anything that should not be here.

If there is not a drastic improvement in kindness, consideration and good manners, and especially choice of words, well off it goes to the Bardo again. I don't want new people wandering in to our nice Buddhist board and seeing a turdfight like this again.


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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:07 pm

alwayson wrote:
kirtu wrote:Homelessness in the US is usually a result of direct poverty.

Kirt



Lets not conflate poverty with homelessness though.

VAST majority of poor are NOT homeless.

Many, but not all, homeless are drug addicts and mentally ill people who refuse all treatment.


There are two to three million homeless people.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:27 pm

Sönam wrote:Curiously (not so in fact), poor country have less homelessness, just because peoples are much more in solidarity. The poor in those countries give food and a place to others poors ... and I speak about experience (in Africa)


Assuming Namdrol's statistic is correct, that would be about 1% for the U.S. From my experience in Africa, the percentage appears much higher. At night, you can literally see rows and rows of people sleeping on the sidewalks and some onto the streets, taking their chances of not getting run over by cars and taxis.

That is true about the culture of helping people, but it can only go so far when the poverty is at such a large scale.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:31 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Sönam wrote:Curiously (not so in fact), poor country have less homelessness, just because peoples are much more in solidarity. The poor in those countries give food and a place to others poors ... and I speak about experience (in Africa)


Assuming Namdrol's statistic is correct, that would be about 1% for the U.S. From my experience in Africa, the percentage appears much higher. At night, you can literally see rows and rows of people sleeping on the sidewalks and some onto the streets, taking their chances of not getting run over by cars and taxis.

That is true about the culture of helping people, but it can only go so far when the poverty is at such a large scale.


Stat extrapolated from National Center for Homelessness adjusted for downturn. Average number of homeless people is about 2 million. Then of course there is the inadequately housed, and that number is much higher.
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Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

Postby alwayson » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Namdrol wrote:Stat extrapolated from National Center for Homelessness adjusted for downturn. Average number of homeless people is about 2 million. Then of course there is the inadequately housed, and that number is much higher.



Isn't that less than 1% of the population??

If the American system works for 99% of the population, you don't mess with it.
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