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What is right view? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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catmoon
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Re: What is right view?

Postby catmoon » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:53 am

Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.


When I need right view, I just close my left eye. Works great.

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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:56 am


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catmoon
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Re: What is right view?

Postby catmoon » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:59 am

OMG he's got Left View! Burn the witch!!!!

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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:08 am


nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:56 pm


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Prasadachitta
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:07 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:45 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Thank you for your most interesting post. I will reply to it in a series of seperate posts, taking one section at a time. My reply to the first section down to where you say ....

"So here knowledge with regard to the four noble truths is called right view" .... is given in my next post.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:48 pm

Hi everyone,

I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?

"And what, monks, is right view ? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the origin of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called right view". ( DN. 22. 21 Walshe 1987 )

What I saw is that it does not mention "four noble truths". I checked a similar passage in MN 141. 24 and the wording is the same.

And yet we read everywhere that right view is the knowledge of the four noble truths ! Nyanatiloka says it, bhikkhu Bodhi says it, Collins says it, hundreds of writers on buddhism have said it, and we have said it here.

Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.

I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.

If anyone knows of such a passage would they be so kind as to provide a reference.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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m0rl0ck
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Re: What is right view?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:48 pm

Can i throw in an answer from a non theravadan perspective?

"all views are wrong views" - TNH

Said various times and ways by various teachers.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:03 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:49 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:51 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:02 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Clueless Git
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Clueless Git » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:19 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:26 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:37 pm


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:45 pm

Hi everyone,

There seems to be some confusion and misunderstanding here on this thread. I will try to sort things out. The confusion appears to be in three main areas :

1. Confusion about the meaning of "view" ( ditthi).

2. Confusion about whether right view is one thing or continuously changing.

3. Confusion about what exactly the four noble truths are.

In this post I will explain my understanding of "view" ( ditthi).

My understanding is that "view" has two meanings - it can mean a belief or a speculative opinion - and it can also mean to directly know and see what is true. For the first meaning one can look at the Brahmajala Sutta (DN. 1) where sixty-two
views about "the self and the world" are described. Most instances of the use of the term "view" are of this type. But there is another use of "view" which is found less often and can only be understood as knowing and seeing the truth. The best example of this is "right view" as the first factor of the noble eightfold path. Another example is the following passage :

"...that view which is noble, leading onwards, which leads, for the man who acts on it, to the complete destruction of suffering"(MN 48.7).

This second meaning of "view" explains why right view is often understood as wisdom or insight.

Pali dictionaries often give both meanings eg. view, belief, insight. Some explain that ditthi literally means "sight" derived from the root "dis" - to see.

There is therefore no need to think that the enlightened individual has eliminated all views, or that all views are wrong. Nor do we need to try to deny that right view is a view.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:43 am

Hi everyone,

Here we examine whether it makes any sense to say that the view of "no-self" is not always right view, but is sometimes wrong view.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did the Buddha teach no-self, or did he just say that there was no self in the five aggregates.

Dhammapada verses 277, 278 and 279.
All mentally constructed things are impermanent (sabbe samkhara anicca).
All mentally constructed things are suffering (sabbe samkhara dukkha).
All things are not-self ( sabbe dhamma anatta).

"Again, Ananda, when asked by the Wanderer : "Is there a self?" had I replied that there is, would my reply be in accordance with the knowledge that all things are not-self?" "Surely not, Lord". PTS Kindred Sayings IV page 282.

The usual teaching method is to point out that nothing in our experience is a self or is related to a self. This is to show that self is just a concept. In fact, a mis-conception. A grammatical mistake, taking an indexical to be an actual thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Buddha knows that "all things are not self" so when he is asked "is there a self?" he can not say that there is. Clearly, his view is that there is no self. Now, the Buddha "knows and sees things as they really are" this is his right view. So it must
include the view of "no-self". Therefore "no-self" is always right view and "self" is always wrong view.

The above is always true if "view of no-self" is understood to mean direct knowing and seeing of the truth. Whether someone could be clinging to a "no-self" belief is an interesting question but does not alter the truth of the statement above.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:55 am

Hi everyone,

Several posters have quoted a passage which speaks about the conditions for the arising of right view. I have no objection to that passage but I suspect that I am understanding it in a different way. For me, the passage is talking about the arising of right view - which only happens once. The arising of right view is the arising of the noble eightfold path - all eight path factors arise together.

It seems that you may be understanding it in some other way. Do you think it happens more than once ? Can you show me a passage from the five nikayas which clearly speaks of right view arising more than once ?
Why are you quoting this passage, and how do you understand it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:59 am

Hi everyone,

This is about the four noble truths.

Item 1. "It is this craving, giving rise to rebirth, accompanied by delight and ..."

What is item 1 ? It is : "The noble truth of the origin of suffering".

Item 2. "The noble truth of the origin of suffering".

What is item 2 ? It is the name of item 1.

So any passage which speaks about knowing or understanding the noble truth of the origin of suffering, means understanding item 1, knowing that craving is the origin of suffering. This is a limited understanding, dependent origination explains much more.

What has to be done in relation to the four noble truths ?

The noble truth of suffering - is to be fully understood.
The noble truth of the origin of suffering - is to be abandoned.
The noble truth of the cessation of suffering - is to be realised.
The noble truth of the path which leads to ... - is to be developed.

There is no word in English which captures the meaning of all these things. So we will have to choose a word which we all agree on to mean all four things which must be done. Otherwise the confusion will continue. What is that word ?

Best wishes, Vincent.


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