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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:16 am 
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The National Rifle Association or NRA is a fixture of American politics: it's extremely influential, and its influence is hotly debated to say the least. This is a recent comment from a colleague of mine (I've quoted him before here at dharmawheel...):

Quote:
it seems clear to me that the NRA, at the very least, is a massively destructive organization with considerable blood on its hands.


full text here:

http://taegowashington.blogspot.com/201 ... -omen.html

I'm posting this because, on the basis of the precepts, I must agree with him. I'd like to know what others think, though.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:57 am 
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Jikan wrote:
The National Rifle Association or NRA is a fixture of American politics: it's extremely influential, and its influence is hotly debated to say the least. This is a recent comment from a colleague of mine (I've quoted him before here at dharmawheel...):

Quote:
it seems clear to me that the NRA, at the very least, is a massively destructive organization with considerable blood on its hands.


full text here:

http://taegowashington.blogspot.com/201 ... -omen.html

I'm posting this because, on the basis of the precepts, I must agree with him. I'd like to know what others think, though.


Surely the precepts aren't the only reason why you feel this way about the NRA. Are you saying that, if the precepts didn't disagree with killing, you'd be an NRA supporter?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Hi Lise,

Short answer: No, certainly not.

I take the precepts as a first principle. NRA practices & policies seem so grievously beyond the precepts to me that the rest of the conversation is moot. That's why I put it the way I did, and why I didn't find it necessary to go into other reasons why I wouldn't want to share karma with an organization such as the NRA. Quite the contrary, I find compelling reasons to work against the proliferation of weapons, gun culture, "gun porn," & concomitant gun violence in our culture.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Hi Jikan, I figured you didn't mean that without the precept against killing you would support the NRA, but I had to ask :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:54 pm 
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what do rifles have to do with Buddhism...it's a stretch...

this is a political issue...

america and guns...insanity...only country in the world that has the right to own a gun in their constitution...totally wack...

from a Buddhist perspective it's ....it's.......hmmmmmmmm

there is none....

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:11 pm 
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It's easy to examine the cultural context of Buddhism and find it cheek by jowl with weaponry.

However, each culture has its laws, perhaps supplemented by codes of behaviour.

Japanese martial arts lived (and maybe still live) alongside Zen, but this is far removed from a situation where anyone may arm themselves for any reason, bereft of moral consideration.

My mind jumps immediately to 'intent'. It is entirely feasible that a Buddhist who has a gun may be faced with shooting someone in order to save lives, whether that be in the military, on the street or at home.

I would never join the military, but as a martial artist I have used my training, on the rare occasions that it was necessary, to cause the least harm to the fewest people, including an attacker, if I could not run.

Guns, however, make that almost impossible, as my attacker may be at a distance, making my only defence to shoot. I would need to apply the same principle, but recognise that I may not be able to disarm them without killing them. If he had a dozen hostages he was about to execute, could I do that? No idea.

We have plenty of guns in the UK now. No political support of any substance. Guns are easily available to criminals - but not to those they wish to threaten or shoot. I hope we never end up with a 'gun culture'.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:45 pm 
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I am totally opposed to everything that the NRA stands for. Their position of influence arises only from the fact that they have guns. In other words, they hold the rest of society hostage.

In "thought experiments", I can imagine implausible situations where, if I had a gun, I would use it. Because of that, I have drawn a mental line in the sand, where I will never voluntarily pick one up, not will I permit one in my house.

My thoughts on this are not so much motivated by the First Precept as confirmed by it.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
I would never join the military, but as a martial artist I have used my training, on the rare occasions that it was necessary, to cause the least harm to the fewest people, including an attacker, if I could not run.
.


It's important to realize that not everyone who joins the military does it to kill people. In fact, most do it to have a job. Also, it's important to remember that the military also serves as a peacekeeping force and is there to protect people. In that way it can be seen as beneficial. The job I had (pre-Buddhism) was just that kind of role. I remained a pacifist even then.
:anjali:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:09 pm 
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lisehull wrote:

It's important to realize that not everyone who joins the military does it to kill people. In fact, most do it to have a job. Also, it's important to remember that the military also serves as a peacekeeping force and is there to protect people. In that way it can be seen as beneficial. The job I had (pre-Buddhism) was just that kind of role. I remained a pacifist even then.
:anjali:


lol...I joined the reserve forces in Canada on a six summer week program offered to students....

yes i never really considered at the time it was all about killing....

I soon realized in class that it was mostly all about learning how to maim..At the time Canada was really big into land mines and variants....they actually did not want us to just kill people....it was far better a tactic to maim and tie up resources....

I was shocked and was labeled a commie pinko soon enough....

Yelled at often enough for my views in class...and they tried to demoralize my "Hippie " ways....lol....


dude.....

the military is not the peace corps......is there still a peace corps....
Breaks out in a song from the mothers of invention

What's there to live for?
Who needs the peace corps?
Think I'll just DROP OUT
I'll go to Frisco
Buy a wig & sleep
On Owsley's floor

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

How I love ya, How I love ya
How I love ya, How I love ya Frisco!
How I love ya, How I love ya
How I love ya, How I love ya
Oh, my hair is getting good in the back!

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

Hotcha!

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce
How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the shit out of me on the street
I will sleep . . .
I will, I will go to a house
That's, that's what I will do
I will go to a house
Where there's a rock & roll band
'Cause the groups all live together
And I will join a rock & roll band
I will be their road manager
And I will stay there with them
And I will get the crabs
But I won't care
Because . . .

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:28 pm 
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OT but "we're only in it for the money" is really the pinnacle of Zappa's career.

UN BIND... YOUR MIND...
THERE IS... NO TIME...
booooooiiinng!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:51 pm 
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I prefer Inca Roads, but hey, to each his or her own...

"Did a Vehicle, did a vehicle....from somewhere up there,...."

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 pm 
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OK, since we're doin' the time warp...one of my favorites... :twothumbsup:

Here.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:19 am 
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Location: East Coast of Canada
lisehull wrote:
It's important to realize that not everyone who joins the military does it to kill people. In fact, most do it to have a job. Also, it's important to remember that the military also serves as a peacekeeping force and is there to protect people. In that way it can be seen as beneficial. The job I had (pre-Buddhism) was just that kind of role. I remained a pacifist even then.
:anjali:

Time warp aside ( :) ) this is a good point. I joined the Canadian Air Force because it was the Government Flying Club, and because I was proud of its peacekeeping tradition and wanted to be a part of it. However, once I became a Buddhist, I started thinking more about Right Livelihood, and realized I couldn't stay. But my experience reminds me that the people are human, not monsters.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:48 am 
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justsit wrote:
OK, since we're doin' the time warp...one of my favorites... :twothumbsup:

Here.


i love country Joe...

i was 13 and for 15 bucks this bus was going to take us to Woodstock and back to montreal ...i was going to run away and just defy me old man...

it is the one damn regret i have in my life....

seriously...i wish i would have just did it...

this kid a few years older did ....he was different when he came back...

my one regret....
:heart: :hug: :heart:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Rael wrote:
it is the one damn regret i have in my life....

Yeah, me too. Though the same age, geography wouldn't have allowed me to make it to Woodstock. But Festival Express in Calgary in 1970... I wish.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


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