Dhamma as a raft

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Stiphan
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Dhamma as a raft

Postby Stiphan » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:25 pm

A question about the Dhamma as a raft, which should be abandoned after reaching the further shore — what exactly is abandoned? Surely arahants do not abandon compassion, moral conduct, mindfulness, wisdom and any other positive qualities.

What do arahants abandon?
:anjali:

meindzai
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby meindzai » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:38 pm

Those qualities have become established for them, so they don't need to "practice" anymore. They've "done what needs to be done" and are completely finished. They are quite naturally unable to break precepts or give rise to any unwholesome states of mind.

-M

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Stiphan
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby Stiphan » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:44 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:01 pm

Greetings Stefan,

Are you able to provide a sutta quotation to assist us in putting this context, particularly as the word dhamma can have multiple meanings.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:11 pm

I think he is referring to the Alagaddupama Sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Good introductory words by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and how sometimes this is misinterpreted. One does not give up on the Dhamma after crossing over.

Here is another good explanation:

http://www.yellowrobe.com/teachings/gen ... -raft.html
Image




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retrofuturist
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:30 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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pink_trike
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby pink_trike » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:03 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

chownah
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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:07 pm

To the extent that the Dhamma is the raft it is abandoned. I think the Buddha made it very clear that the raft is to be abandoned....even suggests that it might just as well be sunk. All the stuff that one learns from the Buddha's teachings which help towards awakening are not meant to be objects to be cherished but to be tools to achieve an end and when the end is reached there is absolutely no need for the tools.....so they are abandoned....even the most cherished stuff just becomes excess baggage when the end is reached....I guess.
chownah

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Re: Dhamma as a raft

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:52 pm

Surely an important element in the metaphor of the raft is the fact that a raft is needed at all, because in that same metaphor a body of water needs to be crossed. Clearly that body of water is too wide and/or turbulent to be crossed unaided. So it follows that the raft can only be abandoned on reaching the other side. Which further means for the vast majority of us a situation that we can only speculate about, being firmly established on THIS side of the water, or at best a short distance from this shore..I think for most of us deciding at which point we are going to ditch the Dhamma is a tad presumptious.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.


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