We've been doing it wrong....

[conebeckham]

http://deviwardtantra.com/tantra-certification-retreat/

[daverupa]

[Boomerang]

Tibetan Tantra™ is a style of Tantric sexual yoga that weaves ancient Tibetan Tantric practices, with Taoist Sexual Yoga, and modern cutting-edge sex education.

Tibetan Tantra™ is the ONLY style of Tantra in the world that offers qualified instruction in The Secret Tibetan 5 Element Sexual Teachings, which are some of the most powerful, transformative, and healing Tantric sexual instructions available today.

How did she trademark Tibetan Tantra?

This is her lineage. It is a real lineage, isn't it?

http://www.kauaidharma.org

Lama Karma Rinchen was born in 1931 in Eastern Tibet. At the age of eleven he entered Palpung Monastery. At nineteen he moved to Tsurphu monastery, near Lhasa , the seat of the H.H. The Karmapa, the lineage head of the Karma Kagyu. In 1959 he fled Tibet to India where he studied with Kalu Rinpoche. From 1961-64 he was one of the East Tibetan representatives for the Tibet-Government-In-Exile in Dharamsala of his Holiness, The Dalai Lama. Then in 1977 H.H. Kalu Rinpoche assigned Lama Rinchen to become the Resident Lama of the Hawaii Dharma Centers. From then until 1982, he was in charge of the Honolulu and Maui Centers . In 1992, Lama Rinchen founded the Kauai Dharma Center, which he currently directs along with the one in Honolulu.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

This is her lineage. It is a real lineage, isn't it?

If you buy a Ferrari and then you substantially alter or abuse it you void the warranty.

[Johnny Dangerous]

http://deviwardtantra.com/tantra-certification-retreat/

[Norwegian]

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Dharma in general, and Vajryana in particular, is not foolproof.

A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.

The traditional analogy is of a frog sitting at the bottom of a well being told of the great ocean, but insisting that what he is being told about can be found without his leaving the well.

******************************************************************************************************************

Hypocrisy alert: The first time I met my teacher he admonished me to never criticize--or even formulate an opinion--about someone's practice, either my own or another's. The reason being that my opinion/perspective was defined by my own unawareness and therefore blind to whatever karma is being worked out. So by posting the above I have failed in doing even the simplest and most basic thing my teacher has instructed me to do. I am doing exactly the same thing that I am disparaging, which is to buy into my own viewpoint and limited awareness.

That is the classic definition of hypocrisy. In no way should my failure to follow even the simplest dharma instruction be a reflection on my teacher.

[Boomerang]

Hypocrisy alert: The first time I met my teacher he admonished me to never criticize--or even formulate an opinion--about someone's practice, either my own or another's. The reason being that my opinion/perspective was defined by my own unawareness and therefore blind to whatever karma is being worked out. So by posting the above I have failed in doing even the simplest and most basic thing my teacher has instructed me to do. I am doing exactly the same thing that I am disparaging, which is to buy into my own viewpoint and limited awareness.

That is the classic definition of hypocrisy. In no way should my failure to follow even the simplest dharma instruction be a reflection on my teacher.

That reminds me of the Purification of Karmic Obscurations sutra. The Buddha said that the monks who superficially do well in practicing the six paramitas yet look down on self-cherishing practitioners are actually thwarting themselves.

I still want to know how she trademarked Tibetan Tantra. That's like trademarking Christian Prayer.

[DGA]

Who knows? I don't know.

Sex therapy is useful for people who need it. And given the number of people who have been traumatized around sex and sexuality in the US at least (this is a US-based operation), there are many who do need it.

I don't know how the Dharma angle works here. I hope it gets people interested in the Buddhist teachings, and gets them practicing.

[Karma Dorje]

http://deviwardtantra.com/tantra-certification-retreat/

Seems legit.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

http://deviwardtantra.com/tantra-certification-retreat/

Seems legit.

In the same way that GMR also seems legit. Getting credentialed is not the same as authentic or valid. Vajrayana is not foolproof.

I don't know how the Dharma angle works here.

It doesn't. Again, with an admittedly Gelug bias I'd like to share what I've been taught.

If you try to take a brute and barbarian and civilize him, the first thing you do is teach him to stop the worst of his behaviors. Let us say he tends to get angry and stabs people. Would you not say, "stop stabbing people, stop cutting them with a knife"? Then once you've got them to do that you get them to go to school and get an education. Suppose then years later they go to medical school. After graduating they become a surgeon. So at that point are they supposed to still "not cut people with a knife"? No. Why? Because not only is their motivation different, but their awareness and skill with which they wield the knife is different. The net result is of benefit, not harm.

In the same way a monk is supposed to refrain from sexuality. Yet if they become a Vajra Master they can do consort practice. Why? Because consort practice is not sex. But to a primitive it looks like the same thing. Tsongkhapa famously had advanced his practice to the point where he was qualified to do consort practice but deferred because he understood that it would be misinterpreted as him having sex. Consort practice and sex are as different as stabbing someone and removing their appendix. As such the surgeon is still prohibited from the initial admonition to not get angry and stab someone. Getting a medical license does not allow one to revert back to a lower level of behavior.

Presenting that level of practice to the public shows that the person teaching it has no idea what it is about, even if they are credentialed. From the Gelug perspective actual real consort practice probably happened less than a half dozen times a century in old Tibet. (Of course Nyingma tradition is not so conservative about it.)

I hope it gets people interested in the Buddhist teachings, and gets them practicing.

That's being generous. However, referring back to my earlier post about my hypocrisy issue, it could very well be the case. All these posts of mine are coming from a place of ignorance. I can't see the karma of what is happening or know the true path to Dharma for those people. My time would be better spent minding my own business and doing my own practice.

**********************************************************************

As a post script, I need to admit that my impulse to correct others is at its core the same as ISIS killing apostates. It comes from the same kind of mentality. It is a matter of degree, not of kind. I've seen high lamas allow people to practice incorrectly and only given then guidance when asked. The request from the student changes the dynamic from a criticism/imposition to a facilitation/liberation.

[Boomerang]

In the same way a monk is supposed to refrain from sexuality. Yet if they become a Vajra Master they can do consort practice. Why? Because consort practice is not sex. But to a primitive it looks like the same thing. Tsongkhapa famously had advanced his practice to the point where he was qualified to do consort practice but deferred because he understood that it would be misinterpreted as him having sex. Consort practice and sex are as different as stabbing someone and removing their appendix. As such the surgeon is still prohibited from the initial admonition to not get angry and stab someone. Getting a medical license does not allow one to revert back to a lower level of behavior.

Presenting that level of practice to the public shows that the person teaching it has no idea what it is about, even if they are credentialed. From the Gelug perspective actual real consort practice probably happened less than a half dozen times a century in old Tibet. (Of course Nyingma tradition is not so conservative about it.

Does that mean Devi Ward is an extremely advanced practitioner, that she even received instructions on sexual tantra in the first place?

[Natan]

None are hot moving on

[DGA]

Yes, I'm trying to be generous and broad-minded.

I'm skeptical of all this but I hold out some hope that some good may come of this experiment in the end.

If, at a minimum, it loosens up people's tensions around sexuality, and helps them respect themselves and others more, then OK, that's a good start.

No comment on the "vajrayana" aspects of this story.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Does that mean Devi Ward is an extremely advanced practitioner, that she even received instructions on sexual tantra in the first place?

The theory is taught in the 3 year retreat to everybody.

Yes, I'm trying to be generous and broad-minded.

I'm skeptical of all this but I hold out some hope that some good may come of this experiment in the end.

If, at a minimum, it loosens up people's tensions around sexuality, and helps them respect themselves and others more, then OK, that's a good start.

I consider your contribution to this thread superior to mine. I aspire to the attitude.

[DGA]

Yes, I'm trying to be generous and broad-minded.

I'm skeptical of all this but I hold out some hope that some good may come of this experiment in the end.

If, at a minimum, it loosens up people's tensions around sexuality, and helps them respect themselves and others more, then OK, that's a good start.

I consider your contribution to this thread superior to mine. I aspire to the attitude.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

[conebeckham]

In the same way a monk is supposed to refrain from sexuality. Yet if they become a Vajra Master they can do consort practice. Why? Because consort practice is not sex. But to a primitive it looks like the same thing. Tsongkhapa famously had advanced his practice to the point where he was qualified to do consort practice but deferred because he understood that it would be misinterpreted as him having sex. Consort practice and sex are as different as stabbing someone and removing their appendix. As such the surgeon is still prohibited from the initial admonition to not get angry and stab someone. Getting a medical license does not allow one to revert back to a lower level of behavior.

Presenting that level of practice to the public shows that the person teaching it has no idea what it is about, even if they are credentialed. From the Gelug perspective actual real consort practice probably happened less than a half dozen times a century in old Tibet. (Of course Nyingma tradition is not so conservative about it.

Does that mean Devi Ward is an extremely advanced practitioner, that she even received instructions on sexual tantra in the first place?

Honestly, if anyone can find me textual evidence, or convincing proof of "oral instruction from a genuine lineage" relating to" Lingam massage," "G Spot stimulation," etc., I will eat my hat. I don't know if Devi Ward has done a retreat or not, but it doesn't matter. Even people who have done retreat can "branch off," shall we say.....

I'm not saying sexual counseling, etc., is "bad"--I think it may be beneficial for people. The stuff she teaches may be good stuff, I don't know. What I object to is the "trademarking" of a term that does not mean what people think it means, and the vague and somewhat misdirected "seal of approval" relating it to a genuine lineage (mine, in fact). I just wish people would not use Dharma affiliation to boost their business ideas or try to somehow add legitimacy to their projects.

[Paul]

Hypocrisy alert: The first time I met my teacher he admonished me to never criticize--or even formulate an opinion--about someone's practice, either my own or another's. The reason being that my opinion/perspective was defined by my own unawareness and therefore blind to whatever karma is being worked out. So by posting the above I have failed in doing even the simplest and most basic thing my teacher has instructed me to do. I am doing exactly the same thing that I am disparaging, which is to buy into my own viewpoint and limited awareness.

That is the classic definition of hypocrisy. In no way should my failure to follow even the simplest dharma instruction be a reflection on my teacher.

That reminds me of the Purification of Karmic Obscurations sutra. The Buddha said that the monks who superficially do well in practicing the six paramitas yet look down on self-cherishing practitioners are actually thwarting themselves.

I still want to know how she trademarked Tibetan Tantra. That's like trademarking Christian Prayer.

'TM' is different to a registered trademark, which has the (R) symbol. TM just shows that you are using it as a trademark to identify your product/services. It's not protected in the same way legally as one that is actually registered. In the end it doesn't mean much at all.

[conebeckham]

'TM' is different to a registered trademark, which has the (R) symbol. TM just shows that you are using it as a trademark to identify your product/services. It's not protected in the same way legally as one that is actually registered. In the end it doesn't mean much at all.

I know what you mean, but I think it does mean something. The fact that's it's there, that someone explicitly used it, communicates something, you know? I'll just leave it at that.

[Paul]

'TM' is different to a registered trademark, which has the (R) symbol. TM just shows that you are using it as a trademark to identify your product/services. It's not protected in the same way legally as one that is actually registered. In the end it doesn't mean much at all.

I know what you mean, but I think it does mean something. The fact that's it's there, that someone explicitly used it, communicates something, you know? I'll just leave it at that.

They're staking a claim for their business, just one that doesn't have much (or any) legal weight.