Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Tibet

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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:25 pm

Indrajala wrote:
theanarchist wrote:Ah, now you accuse people who make such claims of lying and making it up to badmouth the great People's Republic.


I can't verify claims of torture.


http://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/countdo ... black-jail

There are many more documented incidents like this one. Just open your eyes.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby theanarchist » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:03 pm

Indrajala wrote:
theanarchist wrote:Ah, now you accuse people who make such claims of lying and making it up to badmouth the great People's Republic.


I can't verify claims of torture. What am I, the NSA?

I never accused anyone of lying.



It's implied that you accuse them of lying if you say that you don't neccessarily believe these claims of torture are true. Because if one of them tells such stories but it's untrue, the person is lying.

Now very often people who were/are tortured are monks and nuns. As I understand you are ordained, too? So how does one monk claiming other monastics are lying reflect on your own vows?
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:36 am

theanarchist wrote:It's implied that you accuse them of lying if you say that you don't neccessarily believe these claims of torture are true. Because if one of them tells such stories but it's untrue, the person is lying.


No. A journalist will note things are claimed when there is a lack of immediate evidence. It is simply stating someone has claimed something which cannot be immediately verified.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:56 am

Malcolm wrote:No, they don't at all. First of all, we were not in the TAR, we were in Xining. We were allowed to go to Lhasa, but only as a tour group where we were chaperoned around the Barkor like all the other western tourists.


Nevertheless, they let study Tibetan medicine of some sort presumably amongst at least a number of Tibetans and then visit Lhasa. If the Chinese state was bloodthirsty and severely oppressive they simply would not allow such things to happen. Period.

But you realize all you are doing is just defending the oppression of Tibetans in their own lands, you are defending extrajudicial killings, imprisonment, torture and everything else that goes along with racist oppression.


I'm not so convinced it is as severe as you and others paint it on this forum. I agree there's evidently heavy policing and even secret jails (Melissa Chan exposed one even in Beijing as I noted above), but I have to wonder what sort of activities you have to get into to get on their radar at this point. You can evidently practice Buddhism and be left alone in China provided you remain out of politics. Whether that's fair or not is another issue, but nevertheless it doesn't appear to me that China is stamping out Tibetan culture and Buddhism. It isn't even an occupation by international consensus: President Obama in fact said Tibet is a part of the PRC.

If anything, Chinese money is helping to revive TB. Monasteries have and are being rebuilt in Tibet.




That is not Tibetan Buddhism for Tibetans, that is "Tibetan" Buddhism for Chinese consumption. The two are not the same in any respect at all.


I imagine the Tibetan lamas who get massive financial support for their monasteries don't object too much to Chinese consumption of their religion.



There are many more documented incidents like this one. Just open your eyes.


If you wanted to intelligently address issues in Tibet or China, Akong's Rinpoche approach was arguably optimal. He tried to have good working relations with the PRC bureaucracy. Nobody lost face. Things proceeded.

This western approach of raising a shit storm just ends up with people getting hurt. That's a cultural different between China and the west.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:07 am

VIJ, it's alright to suggest a pragmatic approach, and to be critical about sources, but often you seem to me as if you have some kind of grudge against the TIbetans, or against Westerners' "fascination" with Tibet or whatever. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I think you're basically an alright guy, but you just don't seem sympathetic. :shrug:
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Karma Dorje » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:26 am

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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:VIJ, it's alright to suggest a pragmatic approach, and to be critical about sources, but often you seem to me as if you have some kind of grudge against the TIbetans, or against Westerners' "fascination" with Tibet or whatever. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I think you're basically an alright guy, but you just don't seem sympathetic. :shrug:


People often said the same thing about stoics.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Osho » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Osho wrote:That's non different in Tibet except that for some reason Tibetan Buddhism is quite the fashion right now with affluent folks.


The situation on the ground in Tibet is very serious and not this Disney land of religious freedom and happiness you want to paint.



With all due respect.
What we hear on DW from some posters does not necessarily correspond with what can be seen and experienced in China.
Disney Land is a good analogy.
Chinese tourists are flocking to Buddhist and Daoist sites and the more affluent and mobile are hitting Tibet.
It's a win win situation as some of those tourists stick around and begin a more serious interest.
Every 'western Buddhist' here on DW started out as a 'faith tourist'.
It's all good.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:34 pm

Osho wrote:With all due respect.
What we hear on DW from some posters does not necessarily correspond with what can be seen and experienced in China.
Disney Land is a good analogy.
Chinese tourists are flocking to Buddhist and Daoist sites and the more affluent and mobile are hitting Tibet.
It's a win win situation as some of those tourists stick around and begin a more serious interest.
Every 'western Buddhist' here on DW started out as a 'faith tourist'.
It's all good.


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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Osho » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:52 pm

That was a serious point.
I trust that it was politely made.
That was the intention.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:02 am

Osho wrote:That was a serious point.
I trust that it was politely made.
That was the intention.

That's nice.
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby theanarchist » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:08 am

Indrajala wrote:
No. A journalist will note......



You are not a journalist, someone who is supposed to not bring his or her own personal opinion into his work at all.

Your brain is stuffed full with your own personal prejudice and agenda and you will only see and hear, what supports your personal view of the world.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby theanarchist » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:12 am

Indrajala wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:VIJ, it's alright to suggest a pragmatic approach, and to be critical about sources, but often you seem to me as if you have some kind of grudge against the TIbetans, or against Westerners' "fascination" with Tibet or whatever. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I think you're basically an alright guy, but you just don't seem sympathetic. :shrug:


People often said the same thing about stoics.



Oh, stoicism seems a really reasonable philosophy. One that you apparently not adhere to. Because stoicism did not teach to deliberately fool oneself and whitewash stuff that is not white.
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:58 am

Osho wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Osho wrote:That's non different in Tibet except that for some reason Tibetan Buddhism is quite the fashion right now with affluent folks.


The situation on the ground in Tibet is very serious and not this Disney land of religious freedom and happiness you want to paint.



With all due respect.
What we hear on DW from some posters does not necessarily correspond with what can be seen and experienced in China.
Disney Land is a good analogy.
Chinese tourists are flocking to Buddhist and Daoist sites and the more affluent and mobile are hitting Tibet.
It's a win win situation as some of those tourists stick around and begin a more serious interest.
Every 'western Buddhist' here on DW started out as a 'faith tourist'.
It's all good.


Your facile apologetics are useless here. I have been there, i have seen with my own eyes.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: How Tibetans really feel about the occupation

Postby Clarence » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:31 am

Friend of mine is in Tibet at the moment. This is what he said:

There is less military walking around that I can see, but there are security posts with X-ray machines at every entryway into the Barkhor. All the stalls have been completely removed from the Barkhor too, and transplanted to a 3-story building on the north side of Beijing Donglu. There's also a giant and very modern 6-floor mall on Beijing Donglu now too, a huge shopping complex called Time Square. That's what all the construction's been about. The Jokhang and the area around has been mostly untouched, despite what the hype a few years online was about. Though, again, the vendor stalls are all gone which was very jarring and a bit depressing.
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Re: Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Ti

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:29 pm

The Tibetian people were subjugated ,conquested and controlled........ Of course they dont like living under the rule of others nor feeling like second class citizens in their own country.... Would you?

Have the chinese done good in tibet? Yes, they have improved some basic living standards in Tibet.

Have the chinese done bad things in tibet? Yes, the invasion, revoking of many tibetians basic human rights,torture/detentions.ect..ect

What are the consequences in the future?(my samsaric opinion)
(1) the han chinese will out number tibetians in their own country making it IMPOSSIBLE for tibet to ever regain independence.

(2) the dali lama will pass away and china will choose the new dali lama, then the independent tibet gov will also choose a new dali lama, china will try to puppet tibetian buddhism thru the new dali lama....... Fighting will occur due to tibetians not backing the chinese dali lama....(it gets bloodly)
and we are left with two dali lamas.and decline in tibetian buddhism

(3)(opptimistically shot in the dark) the Dali lama passes away, and china chooses the new dali lama,
Except he will not be the dali lama of tibet he will be the dali lama of china, from here china backs
their dali lama of china, therefore promoting buddhism in order to get support and followers for the new dali lama of china, they will push chinese to convert to their dali lama to gain strength in numbers, then they will consolidate control over the geluk tibetians,in order to consolidate control they will have to create many chinese gelugs causing a massive spread of buddhism among the chinese. This will create an uneasy unity between chinese and tibetians based on unity of religion.
(unfortunately i dont ever see an independent tibet,i see an uneasy unity or i see the tibetians ending up like the american indians on reservations).

I think china is going to take the path of rome and end up with a propped up dali lama of china(pope) and a large chinese following to consolodate its power, i think tibetians will always dislike their occupation but many will be happy their form of buddhism is growing.
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Re: Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Ti

Postby theanarchist » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:22 pm

My guess is that Tibet will take the same route that the native Americans in south America have taken after the Spanish and Portugese conquest.
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Re: Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Ti

Postby Osho » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:38 pm

As have I Malcolm, as have I.
Possibly best that all concerned do likewise and then make up their own minds.
Propaganda thrives on ignorance.
:smile:
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Re: Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Ti

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:38 pm

theanarchist wrote:My guess is that Tibet will take the same route that the native Americans in south America have taken after the Spanish and Portugese conquest.
Or, just as likely, the same route that the Native Americans of Northern America, or the Aborigines of Australia, or... have.
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Re: Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Ti

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:41 pm

Osho wrote:As have I Malcolm, as have I.



Then you must have never stepped off your tour bus or talked with any Tibetans.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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