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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Xinjang was not a problem for a long time. We have all watched it become one. Mao was a genius when it came to asymmetrical warfare. With a Maoist toolkit you can take on any well armed, well financed state from within and over time win. All you need is to keep the ideological high ground. As you force the state to use excessive force you gain popular support. The upper echelons live in fear. They know they are failing in their oppression and see no other option but doubling down on terrorizing their own citizens. This tactic worked in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Algeria, South Africa, etc...... It is one of the main lessons of the 20th century. If China doesn't reform they are toast. The loss is already on the board. China can choose to go down like South Africa or it can chose to go down like Cambodia. The longer it goes on the worse the outcome will probably be.


Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Condenscending and sexist remark removed


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:18 pm 
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In Dharamsala in 2011, the Gu Chu Sum organization was posting a notice outside their building on Jogibara Road inviting English-speakers in for daily English conversation practice with the Tibetan former political prisoners there. I don't know if they still do this, but, if they do, it would be a good opportunity for Indrajala to get some insight into the realities of Chinese rule in Tibet.
***
As far as the odd idea that Chinese repression in Tibet is intended to discourage the Uighurs from violence in Xinjiang, the real lesson of Tibet for the Uighurs is that principled, nonviolent resistance makes little impression on the Chinese power structure. It is the very failure of Tibetan nonviolence that will further encourage armed rebellion in Xinjiang.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:48 am 
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Indrajala wrote:
Human Rights activists do have a point that heavy policing .



To call what the government in Peking does in Tibet "heavy policing" is really a sick joke. That sounds like they are paricularly strict with parking tickets or something.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
kirtu wrote:
This is the first time that the Chinese authorities have detained large numbers of Tibetan pilgrims returning from the ceremony, held regularly in India among other places.


Was it all of them or some of the participants, I wonder?


That's not the point,but do you really care either way? :toilet:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:16 pm 
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It was tough for all religious during the Cultural Revolution.
That's history.
Nowadays religion is flourishing in China and money is pouring in to rebuild Buddhist and Daoist concerns.
That's non different in Tibet except that for some reason Tibetan Buddhism is quite the fashion right now with affluent folks.
Tibet's part of China, China is about where we were back in the 1970s more folks have cars, time off, money and can travel.
That's all good news for Buddhists in Tibet.
The 'exiles' though; they're akin to the old White Russians in Paris back in the day.
Wistfully yearning for those 'good old times' that never actually existed.
They'll go the same way as the White Russians did and in a similar timescale.
Once the last current DL era exiles leave their bodies, that'll be it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Osho wrote:
That's non different in Tibet except that for some reason Tibetan Buddhism is quite the fashion right now with affluent folks.


The situation on the ground in Tibet is very serious and not this Disney land of religious freedom and happiness you want to paint.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:55 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
The situation on the ground in Tibet is very serious and not this Disney land of religious freedom and happiness you want to paint.


Three or four Tibetan monks from here just went back to Tibet last year. No problems I hear. There are several Chinese nationals staying in this gonpa, too. One Chinese monk too. There's a heap of Tibetan texts sitting up in the library recently printed and shipped out of Lhasa.

It ain't the seventies in Tibet now.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:39 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The situation on the ground in Tibet is very serious and not this Disney land of religious freedom and happiness you want to paint.


Three or four Tibetan monks from here just went back to Tibet last year. No problems I hear. There are several Chinese nationals staying in this gonpa, too. One Chinese monk too. There's a heap of Tibetan texts sitting up in the library recently printed and shipped out of Lhasa.

It ain't the seventies in Tibet now.



Printing of books does not equal freedom to practice in an unfettered way. I have been to Lhasa. There is no religious freedom there. It is just a Buddhist museum, a tourist attraction.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:51 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Printing of books does not equal freedom to practice in an unfettered way. I have been to Lhasa. There is no religious freedom there. It is just a Buddhist museum, a tourist attraction.


According to you, a tourist.

I keep hearing from Sakya monks at least that you can in fact ordain, practice and do your own thing in Tibet. You just stay out of politics and you're left alone. The same goes for Chinese Buddhists in China. Apparently Gelugpas got it harder, but they're much more inclined towards political activism.

If Tibet was really "burning" you wouldn't have Tibetan monks returning freely to Tibet from Nepal and numerous Chinese nationals over the years staying in this gonpa amongst a high number of Tibetan monks in exile. The Chinese embassy as far as I know doesn't care about their citizens hanging out here for extended periods.

I'd rather that the Chinese not crack down on political activism, but political activism in Tibet (and China) tends to end up in riots in the streets. Arguably peaceful protest is increasingly a thing of the past in the west, too. Look at all the riots in Europe in the last few years. Freedom is one thing, but rule of law and safe streets are preferable as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Another paragraph of apologism. I am really wondering what your interest is in this issue, as you eschew the label Tibetan Buddhist.

The PRC regime exerts its power in different ways across the Tibetan plateau.

Smaller monasteries in more remote regions are less strictly controlled. However, this is the exception rather than the rule.

But as soon as a monastery starts to flourish, watch out. Look what happened to the late Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok's place:

Quote:
During the 1959 Tibetan Rebellion he made the crucial decision to remain in China rather than flee to India. Between 1960 and 1980 he returned to a nomadic lifestyle in order to avoid the Cultural Revolution.

In 1980 Jigme Phuntsok founded the Serthar Buddhist Institute (also called the Larung Gar Buddhist Institute, near the town of Sêrtar (Chinese Seda). The Institute's popularity grew until there were 8500 students at the site, including about 1000 ethnic Chinese as well as students from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia.

In 1987 Jigme Phuntsok met and befriended the Ninth Panchen Lama. In 1989 he also met the 14th Dalai Lama, whom he refused to denounce, much to the chagrin of the Chinese Communist Party. After this the Chinese government refused him permission to travel for any reason.

Khenpo made extensive travels across Tibet and China, teaching and revealing terma. In 1990, at the invitation of Kyabjé Penor Rinpoche, he visited India, where he taught at various monasteries, including the Nyingma Institute in Mysore. At Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama resumed the connections he and Khenpo had in their previous lives by receiving teachings from Khenpo for two weeks. In the summer of 1993, he visited various Dharma centres in Inida, Bhutan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, USA, Canada, and France, including Lerab Ling, where he gave empowerments and teachings including the empowerments of Tertön Sogyal’s termas, Tendrel Nyesel and Vajrakilaya, as well as his own terma treasures of Manjushri and Vajrakilaya, and Dzogchen teachings.

Around 1999 the Sichuan United Work Front pressed him on the issue of his support for the Dalai Lama, and demanded that he reduce the number of students at the Institute (either to 150 or to 1400, depending on reports). Jigme Phuntsok refused. In summer of 2001 several thousand members of the People's Armed Police and the Public Security Bureau descended on the site, razing its structures and dispersed its students.

Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok died of heart failure in 2004, at the age of 70 in Tibet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigme_Phuntsok



As for Sakya see these comments by Berzin:

Quote:
The Sakya Monastery was little damaged during the Chinese Cultural Revolution and its enormous library is one of the rare few that survived the destruction. The course of study and practice at the monastery, however, has been severely curtailed. In India, the traditions of Sakya Monastery have been continued at the Sakya College in Rajpur, Himachal Pradesh
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... stery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I don't think you have enough experience with the TIbetan people, religion or language to present yourself as some "expert with inside information" based on a few conversations with a few monks. While I respect your scholarship in many other areas you are not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism or the Tibetan people.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:11 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:

I keep hearing from Sakya monks at least that you can in fact ordain, practice and do your own thing in Tibet. You just stay out of politics and you're left alone.


That very much depends on where you are in Tibet. In central Tibet, it is not possible. There, religious activities are very strictly controlled. Any monastery that gets too popular, or too big, gets throttled very quickly anywhere one is in Tibet. There are spies everywhere. During the 2008 riots, Chinese used provocateurs to incite looting using this as an excuse for cracking down. Lhasa is heavily patrolled and non-Chinese tourists are not allowed to travel there freely, and never without a "guide".

And incidentally, I was not in China Tibet as a "tourist". I was there studying Tibetan Medicine.

Quote:
If Tibet was really "burning" you wouldn't have Tibetan monks returning freely to Tibet from Nepal and numerous Chinese nationals over the years staying in this gonpa amongst a high number of Tibetan monks in exile. The Chinese embassy as far as I know doesn't care about their citizens hanging out here for extended periods.


The Han are free to come and go pretty much as they please. It is not the same for all Tibetans.

Quote:
I'd rather that the Chinese not crack down on political activism, but political activism in Tibet (and China) tends to end up in riots in the streets. Arguably peaceful protest is increasingly a thing of the past in the west, too. Look at all the riots in Europe in the last few years. Freedom is one thing, but rule of law and safe streets are preferable as well.


When the rule of law is insufferably oppressive, there is only one thing to do — i.e. resist.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:20 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
Another paragraph of apologism.


No. I'm simply trying to find the truth of the matter. It frankly seems the whole "Tibet situation" is a web of lies. I don't trust Tibetan nationalists, nor do I trust the Chinese media or official government line. The propaganda of the latter though is evidently easier to see through however.

Just one more example which doesn't add up: there's a young Tibetan lady at this gonpa teaching Chinese to the monks while studying English. Later she will in fact go back to Tibet, presumably without any problems.

So where exactly is the foaming-at-the-mouth oppression happening in her case? Or what about the other Chinese nationals, including a Buddhist monk, hanging around here? Or the many monks I've met here and elsewhere (like in Singapore) who can freely return to Tibet whenever they feel like it?

The Tibetan nationalists and individuals like you and Malcolm are clearly blowing things out of proportion.


Quote:
I am really wondering what your interest is in this issue, as you eschew the label Tibetan Buddhist.


I'm an academic, a Buddhist monk, a historian, an observer, a Sinologist... I've got plenty of reasons to take an interest.



But as soon as a monastery starts to flourish, watch out. Look what happened to the late Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok's place:

Quote:
Around 1999 the Sichuan United Work Front pressed him on the issue of his support for the Dalai Lama, and demanded that he reduce the number of students at the Institute (either to 150 or to 1400, depending on reports). Jigme Phuntsok refused. In summer of 2001 several thousand members of the People's Armed Police and the Public Security Bureau descended on the site, razing its structures and dispersed its students.



Is that the whole truth?


Quote:
As for Sakya see these comments by Berzin:


Sure, but they're not being put to the torch or anything at the moment. I could infer why the library would be off limits to unauthorized persons (mostly the issues of Indian texts legitimizing Tibet as not really being culturally related so much to China), though that doesn't negate how Sakya monks seems to get it easier in Tibet than, say, Gelugpas. That's highly instructive.

Quote:
I don't think you have enough experience with the TIbetan people, religion or language to present yourself as some "expert with inside information" based on a few conversations with a few monks. While I respect your scholarship in many other areas you are not an expert on Tibetan Buddhism or the Tibetan people.



I never said I was an expert with inside information. I'm just raising questions and objections to add fuel to the discussion. If I didn't report the above details I would be dishonest by virtue of withholding useful information.

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Last edited by Indrajala on Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on where you are in Tibet. In central Tibet, it is not possible.


Any proof?



Quote:
And incidentally, I was not in China Tibet as a "tourist". I was there studying Tibetan Medicine.


Is China really repressing Tibetan culture when they allow a white American associated with Tibetan Buddhism to hang around Tibetan regions to study Tibetan medicine?




Quote:
When the rule of law is insufferably oppressive, there is only one thing to do — i.e. resist.


And that just feeds into an endless cycle. The Chinese would only let up AFTER things have cooled down, not before. Any risk of rioting and the state losing face and they'll not release any pressure.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:29 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
Is China really repressing Tibetan culture when they allow a white American associated with Tibetan Buddhism to hang around Tibetan regions to study Tibetan medicine?


The way Tibetan Medicine is taught within the PRC is that all the religious, i.e. Buddhist, elements of Tibetan Medicine are stripped out.

The Chinese are happy have museums of Tibetan culture, that is exactly where they like it, in museums, not as a living entity.

Quote:
And that just feeds into an endless cycle. The Chinese would only let up AFTER things have cooled down, not before. Any risk of rioting and the state losing face and they'll not release any pressure.


Tibetans will resist forever, even if it takes them 500 years. The Chinese will gave to kill them all before they will give up their desire to regain their independence.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
The way Tibetan Medicine is taught within the PRC is that all the religious, i.e. Buddhist, elements of Tibetan Medicine are stripped out.


Even if that's true, they still let you, a white American, enter Tibetan areas and study "Tibetan medicine". Clearly if they were paranoid oppressors they would have just said no to you and that would have been the end of it.

Your own experiences undermine your claims of extreme oppression.


Quote:
The Chinese are happy have museums of Tibetan culture, that is exactly where they like it, in museums, not as a living entity.


What a sloppy generalization. Tibetan lamas are teaching Chinese people all over China. You can buy Tibetan religious gear in Guangzhou. It ain't a museum specimen. There's apparently a Sakya teacher with a big Dharma center in Shanghai who is also building a retreat center!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Quote:
Any proof?


Link after link, video after video, article after article has been posted here, Indrajala, and you have the nerve to once again ask for proof. It is really frustrating as I have made the effort to provide you with the evidence, as well as suggest real live people you could talk to literally a 5 minute walk from where you were living in Dharamsala. But you refuse to do this. You are determined to believe what you believe.


Five monks from Drepung Monastery in Lhasa arrested after conduct of "patriotic re-education" campaign
http://monitorchina.org/en_show.php?id=171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote:
Another "re-education" campaign in Tibet's monasteries
At Beijing's urging, Tibet's government launches another brainwashing campaign against Buddhist monks and nuns in order to stop them from further self-immolation. Such campaigns began in 1996 and are the last Maoist tool of control left.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Another- ... 24779.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/c ... 51619.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fourteen senior Tibetan monks have been detained and sent for “political reeducation” to a monastery in Tibet’s Nagchu prefecture, sources said, amid fears of a new crackdown on Tibetan religious leaders.

They were summoned by Chinese officials for a “meeting” on Jan. 14, and were taken into custody after leaving their monasteries, with their whereabouts at first unknown.

The monks—who come from the Sera, Drepung, and Ganden monasteries and the Jokhang Temple in the Tibet Autonomous Region’s (TAR) capital Lhasa—are being held in Nagchu’s Penkar monastery, a Swiss-based Tibetan named Sonam told RFA’s Tibetan Service on Wednesday, citing sources with contacts in Tibet.




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In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
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-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:43 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
Link after link, video after video, article after article has been posted here, Indrajala, and you have the nerve to once again ask for proof. It is really frustrating as I have made the effort to provide you with the evidence, as well as suggest real live people you could talk to literally a 5 minute walk from where you were living in Dharamsala. But you refuse to do this. You are determined to believe what you believe.


I can talk to Tibetans who claim to have been tortured by Chinese officials, whereas I also meet monks who freely come and go out of Tibet. So where does the truth lay?

Also, as I noted, Tibetan nationalists produce their own propaganda, just as the Chinese state does.


Quote:
Five monks from Drepung Monastery in Lhasa arrested after conduct of "patriotic re-education" campaign
http://monitorchina.org/en_show.php?id=171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Do you think it is a reliable and objective source that website?

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:48 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:

I can talk to Tibetans who claim to have been tortured by Chinese officials,.



Ah, now you accuse people who make such claims of lying and making it up to badmouth the great People's Republic.

Distgusting!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:59 pm 
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theanarchist wrote:
Ah, now you accuse people who make such claims of lying and making it up to badmouth the great People's Republic.


I can't verify claims of torture. What am I, the NSA?

I never accused anyone of lying (edit: with respect to people on this forum). I'm just saying people claim to have been tortured by the Chinese. Okay, well, let's assume a degree of innocence until proven guilty. I don't deny it happens. The PRC agents don't fool around, nor do they believe in human rights. They also have secret jails. Melissa Chan exposed this and got kicked out the country last year, but then she had evidence (and a film crew went into one briefly).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:22 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
[
Even if that's true, they still let you, a white American, enter Tibetan areas and study "Tibetan medicine".


While our class had wide access to Amdo (2009), the class that followed us (2012) was on a very restricted visa and nearly was not allowed to go at all.

Quote:
Your own experiences undermine your claims of extreme oppression.


No, they don't at all. First of all, we were not in the TAR, we were in Xining. We were allowed to go to Lhasa, but only as a tour group where we were chaperoned around the Barkor like all the other western tourists.

But you realize all you are doing is just defending the oppression of Tibetans in their own lands, you are defending extrajudicial killings, imprisonment, torture and everything else that goes along with racist oppression.

Quote:
Tibetan lamas are teaching Chinese people all over China. You can buy Tibetan religious gear in Guangzhou. It ain't a museum specimen. There's apparently a Sakya teacher with a big Dharma center in Shanghai who is also building a retreat center!


That is not Tibetan Buddhism for Tibetans, that is "Tibetan" Buddhism for Chinese consumption. The two are not the same in any respect at all.

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