Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Tibet

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Opinions on the Consequences of Chinese Occupation of Tibet

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:21 am

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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:22 am

Geographically Arunachal Pradesh might be considered part of the geographic expanse of Tibet, so their claim isn't bogus.

All things considered, the Chinese would probably govern the place better than the Indians do.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:16 am

Perhaps the wishes of people in Arunachal themselves should be taken into consideration.

I haven't seen a survey, but I have many friends and acquaintances from this region. All see disastrous consequences for personal liberty and culture if the PRC takes over. Indeed, the politicians democratically elected by people of this region are chosen partly due to their strong stance against Chinese incursion.

Who can better understand the sentiments of the people of Arunachal than the Arunachalis themselves? Certainly not CPC members with positions in the Department of Minority Affairs in Beijing.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:19 am

JKhedrup wrote:Perhaps the wishes of people in Arunachal themselves should be taken into consideration.


I doubt enough of them are educated and informed enough to really understand the situation. If they knew the track records of many of India's bureaucrats and politicians, they might think Chinese administration is a better bet.

I mean just look at Ladakh. It is used as a pawn in the struggle against Pakistan and India. Nevertheless, despite big military bases and tourism flourishing up there, they still can't provide people in Leh with 24/7 electricity and proper plumbing. When it snows the airport closes down for three days because they can't clear the runway (happened this winter when I was there).

Honestly I have no faith in the Republic of India.


I haven't seen a survey, but I have many friends and acquaintances from this region. All see disastrous consequences for personal liberty and culture if the PRC takes over. Indeed, the politicians democratically elected by people of this region are chosen partly due to their strong stance against Chinese incursion.


Well, that's probably largely due to Indian propaganda against China. A lot of Indians I speak to are paranoid about China and think they are going to take over Himachal Pradesh when they get the chance and push all the Indians there onto the plains. In Arunachal Pradesh the leadership there was probably educated in Indian universities where they learnt all about their apparent foe.

China isn't really the enemy any longer. China isn't under Mao anymore, just as Russia isn't under Stalin anymore.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:40 pm

Indrajala wrote:Geographically Arunachal Pradesh might be considered part of the geographic expanse of Tibet, so their claim isn't bogus.


Geographically and ethnically, Arunachal Pradesh was what was classically referred to as "Mon" by the Tibetans. The Tibetans recognized it as region culturally and ethnically separate from themselves.

Their claims is as bogus as including the greater Tibet on their maps as part of China.

Dude, I honestly wonder sometimes if the PRC cuts you a check.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:Dude, I honestly wonder sometimes if the PRC cuts you a check.


No, I just think India is an abysmal nation with rotten leadership and an inept bureaucracy unable to handle the simplest of tasks. It would be comical if it wasn't tragic.

Consequently I think Chinese leadership in this part of this world is preferable to Indian (nowadays of course, we're not talking about Mao's time).

In fact, as Nepal slowly becomes a client state of China things have been improving. This terrified the Indians in the last decade with catastrophic consequences for Nepali people (the Maoist insurgency).

The Chinese are paying for infrastructure projects in Kathmandu and elsewhere. I imagine they're also facilitating other projects by paying the right people to do their jobs with minimal BS (that's just my suspicion based on what I've heard from a reliable source). Being a client state of India for the last half-century never benefited Nepal much. The elites of Nepal have largely shifted over to favor China, and the increasing economic prosperity will eventually ensure most Nepalis prefer China over India if only because they get access to and can afford a lot of Chinese goods they would otherwise never get from India. The increasing Chinese presence in Kathmandu along with businesses happily catering to them is suggestive of this.


Their claims is as bogus as including the greater Tibet on their maps as part of China.


They conquered Tibet. They own and control the place now. No sovereign state, not even India or the US, disputes this. They govern Tibet. Tibet uses the Renminbi.

So... that means Tibet is part of the PRC in practice and law, and will be for the foreseeable future. To say otherwise is to live in a fantasy, which doesn't benefit anyone.

Arunachal Pradesh would do fine under China.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:59 pm

Indrajala wrote:Arunachal Pradesh would do fine under China.


So for you "24/7 electricity and proper plumbing" are of higher value than human rights and freedom of religion? You really need to sort out your priorities.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:05 pm

Indrajala wrote:In fact, as Nepal slowly becomes a client state of China things have been improving.


That just goes to show how little experience you have in Nepal, even if you have a spent a fair amount of time there in the past few years. Things were much better under the old king, the one who was murdered.

Arunachal Pradesh would do fine under China.


Your continued apologetics for China are nothing short of amazing.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:06 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:So for you "24/7 electricity and proper plumbing" are of higher value than human rights and freedom of religion? You really need to sort out your priorities.


There's limits, but in China you can generally do whatever sort of religious activities you want provided it stays out of politics and you don't get overwhelmingly large. Politicized religion contributed to the downfall of the Qing state (the Taiping Rebellion).

Let me put it this way. In India you have freedom of religion, but you're also free to starve to death (the Indian state doesn't seem to think millions of people expiring in the public is an issue worth tackling). You can worship Sai Baba or the Dalai Lama for all anyone cares, meanwhile half the population defecates outside (that's over half a billion human beings) and more than half of children are suffering malnutrition to varying degrees.

China doesn't have nearly the same problems despite having comparable population levels. Go walk around Shanghai and then compare the experience to Delhi.

I've spent a few years in India and also visited China for awhile. Hands down China despite its police state is a lot nicer and more humane to its poor despite what western and Indian propaganda would say.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:07 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
Indrajala wrote:Arunachal Pradesh would do fine under China.


So for you "24/7 electricity and proper plumbing" are of higher value than human rights and freedom of religion? You really need to sort out your priorities.



Oh, that does not exist in Nepal. In fact, there are regular shortages of everything, much worse than ever before. I have friends who have maintained a house in Katmandhu since the '80's., not Buddhists, and they report that Nepal just gets worse and worse in everyway since the old king died and the Chinese have spread their influence.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:08 pm

Indrajala wrote:Hands down China despite its police state is a lot nicer and more humane to its poor despite what western and Indian propaganda would say.


I have also been to China, and the picture you paint is distorted.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:12 pm

Indrajala wrote:Hands down China despite its police state is a lot nicer and more humane to its poor despite what western and Indian propaganda would say.


Even if that were true, would that, in your opinion, justify a chinese invasion of Arunachal Pradesh?
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:That just goes to show how little experience you have in Nepal, even if you have a spent a fair amount of time there in the past few years. Things were much better under the old king, the one who was murdered.


And what do you know?

The Maoist insurgency caused many people to migrate to Kathmandu because it was safe leading to a number of issues like overpopulation and pollution. On top of that there's issues of inflation, which is global, and corruption at all levels of government.

But things are now improving under Chinese influence. If Nepal really becomes friendly, then their infrastructure and energy problems could be quickly fixed. Nepalese people are not crying out for human rights. They're asking for clean water, electricity, jobs, breathable air and sanitation. When I speak to Nepalese people these are their concerns.

India isn't going to help Nepal with any of those issues. In fact they're more likely to pillage the country and deprive it of its much needed hydroelectric power than enhance the place.

Your continued apologetics for China are nothing short of amazing.


Your commitment to the Exile Tibetan cause despite not being Tibetan is noteworthy.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:16 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
Indrajala wrote:Hands down China despite its police state is a lot nicer and more humane to its poor despite what western and Indian propaganda would say.


Even if that were true, would that, in your opinion, justify a chinese invasion of Arunachal Pradesh?



No, not at all. I'm just saying that push comes to shove and China forces India into a corner they might demand as a concession Arunachal Pradesh.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:17 pm

Indrajala wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:Perhaps the wishes of people in Arunachal themselves should be taken into consideration.


I doubt enough of them are educated and informed enough to really understand the situation. If they knew the track records of many of India's bureaucrats and politicians, they might think Chinese administration is a better bet.

I mean just look at Ladakh. It is used as a pawn in the struggle against Pakistan and India. Nevertheless, despite big military bases and tourism flourishing up there, they still can't provide people in Leh with 24/7 electricity and proper plumbing. When it snows the airport closes down for three days because they can't clear the runway (happened this winter when I was there).

Honestly I have no faith in the Republic of India.


I haven't seen a survey, but I have many friends and acquaintances from this region. All see disastrous consequences for personal liberty and culture if the PRC takes over. Indeed, the politicians democratically elected by people of this region are chosen partly due to their strong stance against Chinese incursion.


Well, that's probably largely due to Indian propaganda against China. A lot of Indians I speak to are paranoid about China and think they are going to take over Himachal Pradesh when they get the chance and push all the Indians there onto the plains. In Arunachal Pradesh the leadership there was probably educated in Indian universities where they learnt all about their apparent foe.

China isn't really the enemy any longer. China isn't under Mao anymore, just as Russia isn't under Stalin anymore.


One should not under- (or indeed over-) estimate the importance of individual and cultural freedom and a sense of national pride. I recall at the time of Ian Smith's death a few years ago, most Zimbabweans, including some of the most strident critics of Mugabe, still said, that life under Mugabe is preferable, because at least they don't feel like second-class citizens any longer. Smith's administration presided over a much more prosperous and functional state than modern day Zimbabwe, but he was a racist of the old patronising sort, who refused to transfer power to the 95% of his country's population until he was forced to.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:Oh, that does not exist in Nepal. In fact, there are regular shortages of everything, much worse than ever before. I have friends who have maintained a house in Katmandhu since the '80's., not Buddhists, and they report that Nepal just gets worse and worse in everyway since the old king died and the Chinese have spread their influence.


You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Kathmandu's electricity and water shortages are caused by overpopulation. Nepal also exports electricity to India, even though it shouldn't. The reason things are getting worse is because of overpopulation mostly coupled with corruption. There's no proper trash disposal, so people burn their rubbish in the street often. There's also a lot of cars on the road without filters evidently.

In any case, China's influence hasn't been so great until maybe two decades ago, if that.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:One should not under- (or indeed over-) estimate the importance of individual and cultural freedom and a sense of national pride.


What does cultural freedom mean when your children are going hungry and you have no prospects to make sufficient money to feed them?

That's what you get in India if you're poor. China isn't perfect, but they're at least feeding their population well enough plus attempting to introduce universal healthcare.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:30 pm

Indrajala wrote:
But things are now improving under Chinese influence. If Nepal really becomes friendly, then their infrastructure and energy problems could be quickly fixed. Nepalese people are not crying out for human rights.


Impunity has continued for human rights violations, including for thousands of unlawful killings, disappearances, abductions, and torture that occurred during the war. Violence and insecurity plague some areas of the country, where armed groups operate largely with impunity. Severe poverty remains a serious concern; and women, lower castes, and ethnic minorities continue to face discrimination.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/coun ... ific/nepal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Your commitment to the Exile Tibetan cause despite not being Tibetan is noteworthy.


Your commitment to a Communist regime is nothing short of appalling.

Quite Frankly Jeff, when it comes to the issue of India and Tibet, you are basically trolling.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:Your commitment to a Communist regime is nothing short of appalling.


I'm not committed to them. On the other side of China I'm more in support of Japanese interests personally.

Also, all things considered, it isn't Communist any longer. China has more or less just reverted back to what it has been for at least 13 centuries: a despotic bureaucracy. They do a better job on most counts compared to India.

Some places in the world in any case won't operate well under a democracy. Look at what's happening in Iraq or Egypt. Arguably India doesn't work so well as a democracy.

Also, regarding the internal security issues in Nepal, that's not China's fault, though it would be in their interests to make Nepal a safe country overall. Prosperous Nepalis will buy Chinese goods and politically appreciate their neighbor more and more. The problem is that the Nepalese state and elites are divided and lack the means to really pull their country together. Maybe the King could come back (there's talk of it), but who knows. I think if they requested assistance from China a lot could be done.
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Re: New China map shows Arunachal Pradesh as part of Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:Quite Frankly Jeff, when it comes to the issue of India and Tibet, you are basically trolling.


No, I'm quite serious about everything on this thread.
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