Tibetan experiences in Tibet, China and India

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 1:21 pm

Dr. Tsetan Sadutshang, the Chief Medical Officer of the hospital, was told last month by the Stop TB Partnership, an international body that is housed at the WHO, that his program had been chosen a winner. The program, however, was not given the award after the WHO director-general Margaret Chan didn’t approve the choice for the program’s links to the Tibetan government-in-exile. According to people close to the selection process, the director-general of the World Health Organization must approve the winner.

Based at a hospital in Dharamsala, India, at the foot of the Himalayas, the Tibetan Tuberculosis Control Program treats Tibetans in exile as well as Indian patients. Despite high rates of TB and drug-resistant TB in the community, the program says 93% of its patients in 2012 were either confirmed cured or were well after their treatment ended.


Ven. Indrajala can just walk to the Tibetan hospital or Human Rights centre to investigate these issues directly. However it seems to me he prefers to make broad assumptions and generalizations about Tibetans and stir the pot, when valuable information and first-hand accounts are literally in his backyard at the moment. I don't get it.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Mon May 12, 2014 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby theanarchist » Mon May 12, 2014 1:27 pm

Indrajala wrote:China is not a totalitarian state. People can generally do what they want within reason as long as they stay away from politics.




LOL

That's the point in totalitarian states, that you either support the system or if you don't want to do that stay away from politics if you want to survive.

You are really deluded....
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 2:36 pm

JKhedrup wrote:I actually think the days of CPC control of China are numbered, the consequence of wanting to become a major world economic superpower is that you are confronted with globalization. Increasingly, ideas are becoming harder to control and monitor.


If anything they'll just drop the whole "party" colors and designation and just be a nominally democratic despotic bureaucracy, where basically the same people are in charge but just nominally represent different parties. That might take another two decades however.

I don't see the despotic bureaucracy changing much however because in practice this is how Chinese civilization has operated for two-thousand years or longer. Chinese civilization also has long standing resentment towards Tibetans, which means there's little political will to stop attempts at assimilating them. Liberal tolerance and multiculturalism are not appreciated in China. The PRC wants even their Han Chinese all speaking the same language (half of China doesn't actually speak standard Mandarin).


I firmly believe the oppressors of Tibet are the CPC and its cadres, not the Chinese people in general. Once the paradigm changes there is hope for Tibetans to salvage remnants of their culture, and there will be a huge opportunity for Tibetan Buddhism in the religious life of Han Chinese.


It really isn't so simple. The PRC opportunistically seized Tibet and consequently today the Chinese govern it and can't turn back the clock. There are a lot of Tibetans who would rather not have the Chinese ruling them, but giving up Tibet or even allowing autonomy and self-determination are politically unfeasible because of strategic concerns. China's control of Tibet gives them great military leverage against neighboring countries, in particular India. There is therefore zero political will to do anything other than ensure complete hegemony over Tibet and over the long-term assimilate Tibetans while settling many Han Chinese in Tibet.

The truth is even if the PRC apologized for what they did in Tibet (they won't), they can't realistically hand over autonomy to the Tibetans because they would still have a lot of understandable hurt feelings and quickly seek independence from China. This is not in the interests of China and could jeopardize their strategic interests and most importantly their power projection. If you're in charge of the welfare of over a billion people, the culture of a few million Tibetans might not seem so important.

There's actually a lot of logic behind the decisions undertaken by the PRC. It isn't necessarily moral by Buddhist standards, but they're not a bunch of psychotic monsters.

If Tibetans and their sympathizers looked at things a bit less emotionally they could possibly come to a negotiated middle way suitable to both sides, though ultimately China has the upper hand because they got the guns and money.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 12, 2014 2:47 pm

Indrajala wrote:There's actually a lot of logic behind the decisions undertaken by the PRC. It isn't necessarily moral by Buddhist standards, but they're not a bunch of psychotic monsters.


Psychopathy has many shades.

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby smcj » Mon May 12, 2014 2:51 pm

They have to seal the border for various reasons. Refugees showing up in Nepal and India also make China look bad, especially at the UN. Strategically it reveals gaps in their defenses to have people crossing over it without permission. It is wrong to shoot people, but their logic isn't arbitrary.

It is the exact same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall, to stop desperately unhappy people from escaping.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 2:57 pm

smcj wrote:It is the same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall.


I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests. It isn't about what is right and wrong, but what is in your interests. The US is no different than China. The US in the last decade alone killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people both directly and indirectly to secure its interests in the Middle East. From a Chinese perspective that honestly appears immoral and wrong, and in fact many will tell you this as well. If you condemn them for Tibet, they'll condemn you for Iraq or some other conflict where plenty of civilians were killed for ultimately political and economic aims.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby jiashengrox » Mon May 12, 2014 3:00 pm

Indrajala wrote:
smcj wrote:It is the same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall.


I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests. It isn't about what is right and wrong, but what is in your interests. The US is no different than China. The US in the last decade alone killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people both directly and indirectly to secure its interests in the Middle East. From a Chinese perspective that honestly appears immoral and wrong, and in fact many will tell you this as well. If you condemn them for Tibet, they'll condemn you for Iraq or some other conflict where plenty of civilians were killed for ultimately political and economic aims.


You really have interesting moral standards. A few cases of sexual abuse brings u so many "provocative" thoughts while u can accept invasion and war so calmly.

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Malcolm » Mon May 12, 2014 3:02 pm

Indrajala wrote:I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests. It isn't about what is right and wrong, but what is in your interests.


As a Buddhist, you know quite well that knowing the difference between right and wrong and then acting on that information in all areas of one's life is the only thing that is one's own as well as everyone else's interest.

Excusing the harmful actions of great nations on the grounds they are merely acting in their own interest is excusing the sociopathy behind all of the world's conflicts today.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 3:04 pm

jiashengrox wrote:You really have interesting moral standards. A few cases of sexual abuse brings u so many "provocative" thoughts while u can accept the invasion of tibet.

:namaste:


I don't really "accept it" in the sense of thinking it was justified. I simply say it happened and it cannot be reversed. The Chinese are not going to budge. The Tibetans need to work within their circumstances and find an alternative way to survive as a culture. Torching oneself is not the solution because the rest of the world ain't going to help you when China has the world dependent on it industrially and economically.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby theanarchist » Mon May 12, 2014 3:06 pm

Indrajala wrote:
smcj wrote:It is the same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall.


I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests..



Yeah, they torture and kill people who simply want to preserve their language, culture and religion and want to have a job that sustains a relatively humble lifestyle without the constant fear of being dispossessed in favour of some ethnic Chinese immigrants.

Not THAT'S outrageous!
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby AlexanderS » Mon May 12, 2014 3:07 pm

Indrajala wrote:
smcj wrote:It is the same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall.


I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests. It isn't about what is right and wrong, but what is in your interests. The US is no different than China. The US in the last decade alone killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people both directly and indirectly to secure its interests in the Middle East. From a Chinese perspective that honestly appears immoral and wrong, and in fact many will tell you this as well. If you condemn them for Tibet, they'll condemn you for Iraq or some other conflict where plenty of civilians were killed for ultimately political and economic aims.


I guess this is somewhat derailing the thread, but the US military policy to does not actively seek to slaughter civilians in the same manner that more ruthless nations conduct war. Of course there are some group of soldiers who do so, but not on orders from their leaders. Most civilian casualties in Iraq and afghanistan have been by iraqis and afghanis and not americans. I'm not going to defend the US military policies, but there's a huge difference in brutality in fx the US occupation of Iraq and the former japanese empires occupation of China and of course also China's invasion and occupation of Tibet.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:As a Buddhist, you know quite well that knowing the difference between right and wrong and then acting on that information in all areas of one's life is the only thing that is one's own as well as everyone else's interest.


Regardless of what I think and feel nations operate by their own logic. For all the liberal values a lot of westerners have embraced in the last century, our nations still commit the same sort of sins they did before.

The truth is that war, exploitation, oppression, violence, genocide and so on are not going to go away just because we find them reprehensible and wrong. You as an individual have options, but the truth is the way our species operates collectively is usually less than moral. The Greeks liked to talk about justice all the time, yet they enjoyed the benefits of slavery. The Medieval Europeans spoke a lot about Christ yet had no problems often sacking cities and hanging the people from the walls. In the modern day we like to talk about peace, non-violence, human rights and so on, yet our nations regularly commit atrocities and initiate wars from which we derive benefits, economically and politically.

You Malcolm as an American citizen get to enjoy an unfair share of the world's energy and industrial output because the USA has the most powerful military in the world and regularly uses it to secure American interests.

So as an individual you can do the morally right thing in your own life, but you still live in a larger world which operates along amoral lines.

I'm not excusing the misdeeds of great nations, but simply saying one needs to be realistic about how the world works if one is to come to realistic solutions to real life problems. In the case of Tibet, finger pointing and condemning China and/or suicide clearly isn't a realistic pathway towards survival of an endangered culture.
Last edited by Indrajala on Mon May 12, 2014 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby smcj » Mon May 12, 2014 3:17 pm

Indrajala wrote:
smcj wrote:It is the same logic that was behind the Berlin Wall.


I'm not saying it is right.

My point wasn't about right and wrong per se. My point was about which side of the border people preferred to live, even at the possible cost of their lives. There are zero people risking getting shot to find a better life in Tibet.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 12, 2014 3:24 pm

And a brief musical interlude for everyone's enjoyment and relaxation:

"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 3:25 pm

AlexanderS wrote:I guess this is somewhat derailing the thread, but the US military policy to does not actively seek to slaughter civilians in the same manner that more ruthless nations conduct war. Of course there are some group of soldiers who do so, but not on orders from their leaders. Most civilian casualties in Iraq and afghanistan have been by iraqis and afghanis and not americans. I'm not going to defend the US military policies, but there's a huge difference in brutality in fx the US occupation of Iraq and the former japanese empires occupation of China and of course also China's invasion and occupation of Tibet.


Same crap different pile:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon May 12, 2014 3:33 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:And a brief musical interlude for everyone's enjoyment and relaxation:



That actually stayed right on topic. :thumbsup:
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 12, 2014 3:35 pm

Yes, the inspiration for the choice of video came from reading the report that Malcolm linked to.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby T. Chokyi » Mon May 12, 2014 3:48 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Yes, the inspiration for the choice of video came from reading the report that Malcolm linked to.


It's a terror for those people, the probability that they could be taken at any moment, and have those experiences.
This hangs over their heads everyday, it's a terrible fear for men and women to live with.

...but back to topic I suppose...
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Sherlock » Mon May 12, 2014 4:01 pm

The case for China having been totalitarian for millenia is overstated. There were periods of centralization and periods of localization. Some Qing emperors were content to "appoint" local non-Chinese rulers to govern their lands, other times, they might send Chinese officials. Still, I remember reading somewhere that the tax collection rate even in the late 19th century was around 7%, which is minuscule if the government had that much control over the empire.

I think it is more likely than not that within the next 50 years, China will fragment more and more due to different pressures within it. Nominally it will still be a united country, but perhaps different areas would have a bit more autonomy.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 5:16 pm

For those with the time or inclination, the interview with Ai Weiwei that I mentioned. Such stoic wisdom and pragmatism on the issue of repression within the PRC.

A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
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