Tibetan experiences in Tibet, China and India

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Tibetan experiences in Tibet, China and India

Postby JKhedrup » Sat May 10, 2014 6:28 am

Discussion split from this thread.

There is something very disturbing to me about the current climate of Tibet bashing- it seems to have become fashionable amongst white Liberals, just like defence of jihadism. Tibet was certainly a medieval society in many ways, and I agree the sectarian conflicts and societal structure were hardly what could be called democratic. The same is true of any society that existed in isolation during the period when industrialisation began to change the face of humanity. Isolated and remote societies- whether in Tibet, Madagascar, or Micronesia, were buffered from these changes and so it is normal that the revolutions that shook the rest of the world did not yet reach those societies.

People seem to forget that while that the fruits of feminism and other equality movements that the West now enjoys came after only years of struggle. While the feminist movement in the West was reaching its culmination, the Tibetans were streaming over the mountains from Tibet to India fleeing the type of aggressive, ugly oppression that is currently politically incorrect to mention because of China's increasing international influence.

While Western values are touted as the best, while we pride ourselves on the values of Liberalism and democracy, and deride the "feudal" cultures of Tibet, we get to turn the lens away from our own societies and feel good about ourselves. Americans can pretend that it wasn't just over 50 years ago that Whites and "Coloureds" were served at different lunch counters. Canadians can pretend that their Native People weren't sent to residential schools where they were stripped of their culture and livelihood. Australians can ignore the poverty and lack of education in the Aboriginee community. People from the UK can ignore the race riots that occurred just a couple of years ago.

Not to mention that the values of Western liberalism that are so superior to Tibetan and other traditional "feudal societies" have led to the capitalist, industrial culture that has raped the earth of much of its resources, led to record levels of pollution that have changed the climate and indeed a crisis that may wipe many forms of life off the face of the earth completely.

Perhaps these "superstitious" beliefs of nagas and spirits prevented the mining and logging, while under the "modern policies" of the PRC have raped Tibet of its natural heritage and led to problems of water quality and scarcity for millions of people downstream.

Perhaps the "primitive" form of life of the nomads led to a more sustainable footprint on Tibet's ecology, while the current program of resettlement of nomad Tibetans by the PRC in "Reserves" (yes, just like those of native Americans) has led to conditions where disease and pollution are more rampant.

But rather than try to address the problems in a way that would help the Tibetans to choose THEMSELVES how to preserve their culture and reconcile it with the modern paradigm, let's cast them as primitive against modern Western (read white), Industrial norms. That way we can feel good about not having the courage to confront China about its human rights abuse. We can feel comfortable about driving our cars that pollute the environment, and we can ignore the problems on our own doorstep.
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In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
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Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 10, 2014 3:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:We have the PRC, literally raping Tibet and sterilizing Tibetan women after forcing them to have late term abortions,...


Do you have credible proof that this is happening, and if so is it being ordered by the upper echelons of PRC leadership?
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby JKhedrup » Sat May 10, 2014 4:05 pm

http://www.ilhr.org/ilhr/regional/tibet ... ights.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
. Outside of the context of armed conflict, however, systematic and discriminatory acts of violence against women may be more difficult to discern. For this reason, we call the Commission's attention to the pattern of gender-based violence that Tibetan women suffer at the hands of Chinese government officials. This pattern includes forced or coerced sterilizations and abortions, as well as rape and other sexual torture perpetrated against Tibetan women, primarily nuns, as punishment for non-violent political protest. Moreover, these acts take place within the context of a broad and ongoing pattern of human rights violations against the Tibetan people, whose foundational right to self-determination has been denied for the past fifty years, as recognized by General Assembly Resolution 1723 (XVI) (1961) and reaffirmed by Resolution 2079 (XX) (1965). Women's rights violations in Tibet, including both reproductive rights violations and acts of sexual violence, reflect and in many ways originate in the failure of China's authorities to permit Tibetans to exercise their right to self-determination. Here, as in the more overt cases in Bosnia and Rwanda, patterns of sexual violence also evince a discriminatory motive.

3. Coerced abortions and sterilizations, as well as intrusive monitoring of women's reproductive cycles, constitute acts of discrimination that violate Articles 1 and 2 of the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW). Article 16(e) of CEDAW specifically guarantees women the rights "to decide freely and responsibly on the number and spacing of their children and to have access to the . . . means to enable them to exercise these rights." At the Fourth World Conference on Women, the participating governments, including China, recognized and reaffirmed "the right of all women to control all aspects of their health, in particular their own fertility" (Beijing Declaration and Platform of Action, para. 17). To this end, governments agreed to "[e]nsure that all health services and workers conform to human rights and to ethical, professional and gender-sensitive standards in the delivery of women's health services aimed at ensuring responsible, voluntary and informed consent" and to "eliminate harmful, medically unnecessary or coercive medical interventions" (paras. 107(g)-(h)). China's 1995 White Paper, "The Progress of Human Rights in China," however, says only that the state respects a woman's "right" to "family planning" and her "freedom to choose not to give birth."

4. Tibetan women continue to face a systematic policy of medically unnecessary, highly coercive, and often harmful sterilizations and forced abortions, ostensibly justified by China's nationwide population control policies. Ordinarily, the government adheres to a "one family - one child" policy as a means to control China's overpopulation problems. But this policy, at least in theory, applies solely to nationalities whose populations exceed ten million. Only about six million Tibetans live in Tibet. More critically, Tibet has no population problem, and it never has. In fact, prior to 1950, about six million Tibetans lived in Tibet, a region roughly the size of Western Europe. Even today, in the "Tibet Autonomous Region," which covers about forty percent of the region traditionally called Tibet, fewer than 1.6 persons inhabit each square kilometre. Tibet remains one of the least populated regions in the world. There is absolutely no justification for China to apply its "family planning" policies in Tibet.

5. Indeed, if the true reason that China forcibly limits Tibetan women's reproductive rights is the government's legitimate concern about Tibet's population density, then it is difficult to understand why China continues to encourage the resettlement of tremendous numbers of ethnic Chinese in Tibet. The pattern of coercive sterlizations and abortions performed on Tibetan women, absent any real justification, constitutes measures imposed to prevent births within the Tibetan national, ethnic, racial and religious group. This suggests an intent to destroy the Tibetan people, in whole or in part, which is a clear violation of China's international obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

6. Reports indicate that Tibetan women suffer forced sterilizations and late-term abortions at the hands of state healthcare workers. According to the Tibet Information Network (TIN), "a considerable element of coercion is applied to women, particularly in rural areas, through the mechanisms of fines and administrative structures introduced by these officials" ("Increased Restrictions on Birth of Children in Tibet," Feb. 9, 2000). For example, a 61-year-old Tibetan reported that poor women from his village, regardless of the size of their families, were summoned by Chinese authorities to undergo birth control measures. If they refused, the authorities fined them 1000 yuan, approximately two-thirds of the per capita net annual income for the farmers and herders who comprise 85% of the Tibet Autonomous Region's Tibetan population. TIN's source noted that "none of the women could dare refuse," and they were given the choice of "being inserted with loops [IUD], sterilisation, or injection." Tibetans who objected to these procedures-either because of their Tibetan Buddhist religious beliefs or their practical need, as subsistence farmers, for more children to help them survive-were reprimanded for "expressing such discontent" and told they were "defying the policy of the Chinese government," charges that "can lead to severe repercussions."

7. "Racial Discrimination in Tibet," a recent study by the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD), confirms that "sterilisation and forced abortions" have become routine in Tibet. For instance, in the Kanze Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture (a region of the Tibetan province of Kham), one Tibetan described how Chinese authorities visit his village regularly to enforce the birth control policy: "[A]ll the other women in the village who had two children already were ordered to undergo sterilisation regardless of their age or physical condition. They were treated like animals, and given very poor operations. One woman . . . died seven days after she was sterilised." Tibetan sources also told TIN researchers that Chinese authorities in the Kanze were intensifying birth control to enforce a strict "two child" policy for Tibetan farmers and herders-even though Kanze's population growth is about one-half that of China as a whole, and its population density is similarly sparse. ("New Birth Control Policies to 'Help Families Become Richer,'" Feb. 9, 2000)

8. Another Tibetan woman, from the Tsolho Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in Qinghai Province, was threatened with severe consequences if she refused to abort her second child: "No words have the power to express the excruciating pain I experienced during the operation," she told TCHRD. "Over 85% of the women worker[s] have to undergo the same torture and excruciating pain." As her testimony suggests, Tibetan women are subjected to forced, and often late-term (as late as the 7th or 8th month of pregnancy), abortions. These cause them severe pain and are not always performed by experienced healthcare workers or under sanitary conditions. If the women refuse to submit to these procedures, however, their "unauthorized" children are denied education, medical care, ration cards and other state benefits that they would ordinarily receive. Moreover, some reports indicate that Tibetan women have been brought to medical clinics on various pretexts unrelated to their pregnancies and then, without their knowledge or consent, given injections that induce abortions.

9. Tibetan women also face a systematic pattern of gender-based violence for non-violent expressions of their political opinions. According to "Hostile Elements" (1999), a recent report by TIN, about one out of every twenty Tibetan women imprisoned for non-violent political expression die as a result of violence, torture, and other maltreatment. In June 1998, according to another TIN report ("Rukhag 3: The Nuns of Drapchi Prison" (2000)), five Tibetan nuns who had been detained for political protests in the late 1980s and early 1990s reportedly committed suicide after suffering five weeks of severe maltreatment. Security personnel, acting under official orders, had beat the nuns and subjected them to electric shocks with cattle prods: "Electric batons are utilised . . . to torture those under restraint. Sense organs, such as tongue and ears, body cavities and sexual areas, especially on females, have been routine points of application for electric shocks." In 1999, TCHRD likewise reported that Tibetan women detained for political expression are subject to sexual torture, including "assaults with sticks and electric cattle prods that are forcibly inserted into the vagina, anus and mouth."

10. Mr. Chairman, Article 1 of the 1993 Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women notes that "the term 'violence against women' means any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual, or psychological harm or suffering to women," and Article 2(d) makes clear that this includes "physical, sexual and psychological violence perpetuated or condoned by the State." The evidence of gender-based violence in Tibet, including coerced abortions, forcible sterilizations, and acts of sexual torture, reveals a systematic pattern of violence against Tibetan women that is "perpetuated or condoned by the [Chinese] State." We therefore urge the Commission to adopt a resolution calling on the Chinese government to protect Tibetan women from this pattern of gender-based violence, to take prompt and effective measures to prevent the sexual torture and abuse of detained Tibetan women, and to cease the illegitimate policy and practice of forcibly sterilizing Tibetan women and aborting their children.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sat May 10, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby Indrajala » Sat May 10, 2014 4:16 pm

JKhedrup wrote:http://www.ilhr.org/ilhr/regional/tibet/womenrights.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Can any of these claims of forced abortions and so on be proven?

There are a lot of countries and organizations in the world that benefit from painting the PRC as a monster, just as the PRC benefits from undermining claims of Tibetan cultural and political autonomy.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby JKhedrup » Sat May 10, 2014 4:19 pm

I spoke to a woman in Dharamsala who experienced. She was very sincere in what she shared with me. So I believe these reports.

But yes,Ven. Indrajala, I guess it comes down to an element of trust. Documenting these things is difficult- I don't see how you could arrange for a video tape of a forced sterilization from a Chinese prison- you would need someone on the inside. Seems like a tall order.

However, we have many accounts of torture and sterilization from Tibetans as well as Chinese dissidents.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Sat May 10, 2014 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 10, 2014 4:58 pm

I don't think that all of us are 'Tibet bashing'. Not at all. I am very aware of the genocide that the Chinese army inflicted on the Tibetan people. There is no doubt about it.

However the point that is being made is why those bodhisattvas, in positions of temporal authority, were not able to fulfil their vow to benefit ALL beings to the fullest extent possible? If they were truly realized and could direct their rebirths then one wonders why they could not step out of the control of the various worldly influences that were limiting their effect in benefiting beings. That's the simple point that is being made.

The current Dalai Lama has stated many times his respect for democracy. After exposure to Western ideas, the 13th Dalai Lama also wanted to make reforms that were democratically minded. It seems that he was thwarted in this regard by the ruling classes. But again we see that these ideas of democracy were external and that the 13th Dalai Lama despite being a realized being and high level bodhisattva, was not able to overcome worldly forces of a domestic origin.

One wonders how the karma of beings can be a limiting factor. Since every being cherishes freedom, we can assume that the cherishing of freedom is a part of every beings' karmic makeup. Why wouldn't bodhisattvas put in place structures that protected and promoted the freedom of beings?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 10, 2014 5:52 pm

kirtu wrote:......A minor one was Thomas Rich, Shambhalla. It appears that Trungpa did try to save Rich from himself.


Well there (unfortunately) is a very good example of bodhisattva short-sightedness.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence

Postby Adi » Sat May 10, 2014 6:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:There is something very disturbing to me about the current climate of Tibet bashing.


Especially since we never observe China bashing, Japan bashing, etc., on these boards. It's pretty sad, actually. We have the PRC, literally raping Tibet and sterilizing Tibetan women after forcing them to have late term abortions, resettling Tibetan nomad in concrete villages and restricting the number of cattle they can own, fencing off their traditional grazing lands, but no, we don't really hear about this.


It is a very sad situation and not much is heard about it here. Though in this thread as already quoted there is abundant evidence provided by UN agencies, NGOs, first-hand accounts, and the stories of just about everyone who arrives in Dharamsala having made the escape from occupied Tibet. No credible sources outside of the state-controlled PRC sources deny this.

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Sun May 11, 2014 2:25 am

Sherab Rigdrol wrote:A troll in robes is still a troll.


Totally agree:

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby theanarchist » Sun May 11, 2014 7:34 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
theanarchist wrote:Go home with your tired old rambling that...


Can't. I'm a homeless monk. No home to go to. :roll:


Now you just need to leave the internet alone and pick up an alms bowl.




Indeed. I'm sure that if the internet had existed at the times of the buddha he would have created a vinaya rule concering it's use.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Sun May 11, 2014 10:25 pm

There's ongoing propaganda projects to paint the PRC leadership and bureaucracy as a bunch of monsters.


Yes the poor PRC leadership, they're actually good people.

And they would never try to paint dissidents like HH Dalai Lama, Ai Wei Wei and so forth as monsters. In fact, it's Ai Wei Wei and HHDL who are doing that to them. C'mon Ven. I. Why are you willing to paint Tibetan Buddhism as evil and corrupt based on a few limited sources, but when I provided extensive links about PRC atrocities you were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and be open to the fact they might be just misunderstood.

There is a profound agenda behind all this, otherwise you'd hold everyone to the same standard.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 5:07 am

JKhedrup wrote:Yes the poor PRC leadership, they're actually good people.


If you believe in compassion, you'd give them the benefit of the doubt and maybe ascertain what their mentality generally is. They also have plenty of enemies and consequently a lot of propaganda directed against them.

And they would never try to paint dissidents like HH Dalai Lama, Ai Wei Wei and so forth as monsters.


I never said they would not. They in fact do through their news agency Xinhua especially.

The truth is somewhere in the middle between both sides.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 5:39 am

Rory you still have not shown how Ven. Indrajala's criticism of the Tibetan monastic system in one breath, and easyhanded dismissal of PRC acts of rape and sterilization against Tibetan and Chinese dissidents, framing them as demonizing China, is acceptable.

You accuse others of cognitive dissonance but I find Ven. Indrajala's moral outrage very targeted and selective. His claims of "widespread" provide only one story (which I agree is tragic) as evidence, whereas I provided many reliable links to the stories of sterilization and rape by Chinese authorities.

I am a victim of abuse myself so theoretically should have a great deal emotionally invested in this but even I can see through this selective moral outrage and frankly rather racist campaign to paint Tibetans as backward feudal peasants when we all know abuse is just as widespread in Western societies, and violence against women fueled partly by the Western porn industry. I find many of the comments about India similarly colonialist in their tone. While I would never argue for the censor of such comments, as others have during other threads of the board, I will certainly challenge them.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Mon May 12, 2014 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 6:27 am

The Chinese regime's behavior has nothing to do with the heads of these monasteries responsabilities to the poor children under their care.



Of course it does! The Tibetans would not be in exile and there would be less parentless children to send to monasteries if the PRC had not been involved. In fact many families have no choice but to send their children to monasteries because the other option are Chinese schools where teaching the Tibetan language is forbidden and their culture is rubbished by racist Chinese teachers.

We know that abuse goes up during periods of trauma and war. And the Tibetans have been traumatized by the PRC for over 50 years. To somehow think the larger picture does not impact these issues, or that each of the issues exists in their own bubbles, is just silly and ignoring Buddhist teachings on interdependence.


We are not deflecting and it is an insult to suggest we are. I did not bring those issues into the thread. I responded to Ven. I's callous and cold dismissal of forced sterilization and rape. How could any feeling person not respond to that?

Ven. I has so far provided only 2 real links worthy of discussion, but nevertheless jumped to huge conclusions using words like "widespread and endemic". He even suggested the CBSE affiliation, which he would have known nothing about if not for me mentioning it, was due to abuse- patently ridiculous, HH Dalai Lama wanted the curriculum modernized.

Why you are more inclined to listen to Ven. Indrajala who has never lived in a Tibetan monastery and does not speak the language, more than myself, who has lived with Tibetans for over 10 years and is fluent in the Kham and Lhasa dialects, about Tibetan issues, is a mystery to me. It reveals some sort of bias on this issue or determination to see Tibetans poorly.


In fact it shows to me you simply have a rather low opinion of Tibetans and their culture, which if directed against Africans for example would be considered racist, but in the current climate of Liberal Tibet bashing somehow never gets called out.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Mon May 12, 2014 6:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 6:30 am

JKhedrup wrote:Rory you still have not shown how Ven. Indrajala's criticism of the Tibetan monastic system in one breath, and easyhanded dismissal of PRC acts of rape and sterilization against Tibetan and Chinese dissidents, framing them as demonizing China, is acceptable.


I simply asked if the claims could be proven.


His claims of "widespread" provide only one story (which I agree is tragic) as evidence, whereas I provided many reliable links to the stories of sterilization and rape by Chinese authorities.


There's arguably going to be more investigative reporting with Tibetan refugees who suffered at the hands of Chinese authorities, rather than investigative reporting inside monasteries investigating possible child abuse.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 6:32 am

Ridiculous. The PRC doesn't let reporters anywhere near restive Tibetan areas in Sichuan or the TAR area around Lhasa. They don't even let tourists near such places.

As for the Tibetan exile community in India, they were mostly abandoned by the press ages ago.

If you are in Dharamsala you should make the effort to actually go and talk to the people who were in the prisons etc. rather than just reading books about it. Seriously, just make an appointment with the people at the Tibetan justice centre.

I simply asked if the claims could be proven.


To which I provided extensive quotes and links which you summarily dismissed.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 7:13 am

JKhedrup wrote:Ridiculous. The PRC doesn't let reporters anywhere near restive Tibetan areas in Sichuan or the TAR area around Lhasa. They don't even let tourists near such places.


Well, they're running a tight show, and western media organizations don't always report things in the most objective way. Again, it is in the interests of certain countries to paint China as a monster.

Also let's be realistic: if the PRC didn't have as much internal policing as it does (not just in Tibet, but all over the country) there would be a lot more violence in the streets, particularly riots, and innocent people would be hurt. The recent stabbings and bombings of innocent people make matters worse.

Chinese people didn't perceive the Lhasa riots some years ago in a sympathetic light. They probably generally think Tibet needs more firm policing rather than less. One could argue that China has no business policing Tibet as their claim over it is on shaky ground (I agree, their claims about Tibet always having been a part of China are easily refuted), but they can't turn back time and just up and leave Tibet. They have to govern it. If they loosened their grip and riots broke out they'd stand to lose authority and legitimacy even back in China proper.

There's also the fact that China's enemies could support Tibetan insurgents if they let their guard down. I wouldn't be surprised if there was covert support at present, especially from India which has been struggling with China for decades. They had a proxy conflict through Nepal in the last decade during the Maoist insurgency.

Consequently China is on its toes. Poking at them doesn't help matters.

Of course none of this justifies any terrorizing of people, but to what extent rape and forced sterilization are occurring under direct government orders from Beijing remains unclear to me.


To which I provided extensive quotes and links which you summarily dismissed.


Where did I dismiss it?
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 7:23 am

If they loosened their grip and riots broke out they'd stand to lose authority and legitimacy even back in China proper.


Which could be a wonderful thing from all of the minorities in China as well as the Han people. A country no longer under the iron shackles of a corrupt and cruel "communist" (now Totalitarian-Capitalist hybrid) party. I don't think this would be a bad thing at all. For both Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism, actually, I think it would be a great thing.

We're just having a discussion. If someone on the forum thought ill of me, then at worst it just means they'll avoid meeting me in real life.


Hopefully as Buddhists we are grown up enough to realize that people are more than just the sum of their opinions on one topic. I certainly think it shows a lack of equanimity to not give someone benefit of the doubt in other areas due to disagreeing strongly with their opinions. People are more complex than that, like I said, I refuge to apologize to my sister for having friends that are Republicans.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Indrajala » Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 am

JKhedrup wrote:Which could be a wonderful thing from all of the minorities in China as well as the Han people. A country no longer under the iron shackles of a corrupt and cruel communist party. I don't think this would be a bad thing at all.


It isn't the party so much as how the Chinese state operates and always has. China is a despotic bureaucracy as it always has been. The nationalists in Taiwan were the same way, though they allowed democracy in the late 20th century basically to secure international support and legitimacy for their fledgling country. I imagine the Americans also instructed them to do so as the age of supporting dictators had come to an end.

In the case of China loosening its grip on security matters, how long would it take for massive riots, looting and so forth to unfold across the country? Infrastructure, industry and business would also suffer enormously. Do you honestly think everyone would just breath a sigh of relief and rejoice in new found freedom? How long would it take for Jihadists to move into Xinjiang?

States generally act in a logical albeit sometimes amoral fashion. The reason there is as much internal security in China as there is is simply because the alternative is chaos.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby JKhedrup » Mon May 12, 2014 7:36 am

The nationalists in Taiwan were the same way, though they allowed democracy in the late 20th century basically to secure international support and legitimacy for their fledgling country. I imagine the Americans also instructed them to do so as the age of supporting dictators had come to an end.


And I think it worked out well for Taiwan in the end. They seem to function rather well as an independent, democratic country.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

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