Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Wed May 21, 2014 9:12 pm

Cop, rabbi, scoutmaster among arrests in child porn bust

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/21/justice/n ... ?hpt=hp_t1

It is everywhere, I really haven't seen any evidence that would single out celibates. And such baseless generalizations are harmful to myself and other people who try to live the monastic lifestyle and would never lay a finger on a child.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby greentara » Thu May 22, 2014 6:32 am

Dear JKhedrup, The beautiful old saying 'as you are so is the world' is so apt here. If people see most monks and religious institutions as sinister places, if they see no goodness.... well let them have their half baked ideas. Its really not worthy of a serious response.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Thu May 22, 2014 6:53 am

JKhedrup wrote:(in a David Miscavige type voice) Where are you on the bridge?


I'm the bridge and not the bridge etc... you know the rest of it. That's, I HOPE that as a monk at least you know the theory of it.

But we're OT, so I propose you open up another thread if you'd like to discuss that. Though I fear your time is running out.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 7:31 am

I just think it is extremely arrogant and impolite to judge the spiritual attainments of others based on postings you read on an internet forum. I hope all of us can post opinions here without being subjected to such summary judgements.

It is really only those with attainments who are qualified to speak of the realization of others.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Thu May 22, 2014 9:01 am

JKhedrup wrote:I just think it is extremely arrogant and impolite to judge the spiritual attainments of others based on postings you read on an internet forum. I hope all of us can post opinions here without being subjected to such summary judgements.

It is really only those with attainments who are qualified to speak of the realization of others.


So you wanted to reach with adressing me - what? Wanted to tell me that you've judged my attainments, come to the conclusion that I'm not qualified and therefore wanted to call me arrogant? Well, thank you, you could have had that without first pretending to ask questions.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby jiashengrox » Thu May 22, 2014 9:29 am

Minjeay wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:I just think it is extremely arrogant and impolite to judge the spiritual attainments of others based on postings you read on an internet forum. I hope all of us can post opinions here without being subjected to such summary judgements.

It is really only those with attainments who are qualified to speak of the realization of others.


So you wanted to reach with adressing me - what? Wanted to tell me that you've judged my attainments, come to the conclusion that I'm not qualified and therefore wanted to call me arrogant? Well, thank you, you could have had that without first pretending to ask questions.


I don't know why you are so aggressive about things, because what Ven Khedrup said is not of this meaning at all. What he merely said was that it is simply impolite and arrogant to judge someone's spiritual attainments based on his or her reply on the Internet forum. He did not even mention anything with regards about YOUR spiritual attainments.

And what Ven Khedrup and the rest clearly are trying to present is that as much as it is a monastic community is bound to have one or two black sheeps, but it does not mean we should void the entire tradition, since such "freak cases" do happen everywhere. In fact, he has been very open about this.

In fact, what he has written has been very instructive (at least for me). It further emphasizes the need to choose a qualified spiritual master, i.e. Examine ur teacher very carefully. You cant possibly put a finger on anyone for YOUR own choice of a spiritual teacher, since you cant be coerced into doing so.

As far as monastic institution violence in Tibet, i have to say the benefits far outweigh the detriments (look at Namdroling, Drepung, Gyuto, Drikung Institute, Dzongsar Seminary, etc. as compared to just a mere 2 confirmed cases and some suspicious ones), so one should not be overly critical about it. It is not tt one should overlook; one should be critical, but overdoing it is not going to be fruitful.

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 9:40 am

Wanted to tell me that you've judged my attainments, come to the conclusion that I'm not qualified and therefore wanted to call me arrogant?


That is not what I was saying at all, please read the statement again.

What I wanted to point out, is that it is rude to attack others and presume to them to be "lower than oneself" in terms of attainments in polite company. Such a statement would be considered arrogant in both Buddhist and secular circles. And also to point out that it is silly to presume to be able to determine the attainments of people (whom you have never met in real life) based on interactions in one thread of an internet forum.

In short, denigrating others alienates them and makes them less likely to listen to your point of view. Plus, it causes friction and animosity where there needn't be any.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Thu May 22, 2014 9:56 am

JKhedrup wrote:
Wanted to tell me that you've judged my attainments, come to the conclusion that I'm not qualified and therefore wanted to call me arrogant?


That is not what I was saying at all, please read the statement again.

What I wanted to point out, is that it is rude to attack others and presume to them to be "lower than oneself" in terms of attainments in polite company. Such a statement would be considered arrogant in both Buddhist and secular circles. And also to point out that it is silly to presume to be able to determine the attainments of people (whom you have never met in real life) based on interactions in one thread of an internet forum.

In short, denigrating others alienates them and makes them less likely to listen to your point of view. Plus, it causes friction and animosity where there needn't be any.


Well, I ask you then to follow up the conversation:

Minjeay wrote:
smcj wrote:
You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?

I guess you like the formless meditations better. Well, the completion stage of those meditations you seem to object to has those as well. Or am I completely misunderstanding you?


Well, in principle, for sure, the method can cover formless stuff. I'm more talking about the general aim of practice.
jiashengrox wrote:So may I ask, what are the basis for your claims in the limitations of tantra? Where are the sources, or at the very least, your reasons for claiming that, and the evidence to support the claims?

:namaste:


Personal contact with persons who practice those things, and observation of their stage, development and further aims.
Not limited to persons without attainments.

Actually, those with attainments tend to be worse in many cases. Which is definitely a sad thing.


I was actually not starting a conversation with "X is lower than me" with X. I was describing my observations, when you went in laughing about my abilities to be qualified to make those observations.
I think that's different than the setup YOU described, right?

Actually I tend to really just leave those places without confronting those guys with my observations. I usually limit things to giving some hints about flaws of what's going on.

It was you who brought up the question of qualification, just assuming without knowing me about whether I'm allowed to make claims or not.
If you guys are fans of Tantra nobody hinders you from that. It wouldn't be buddhism anyway if you would just believe what people say.
On the other side it might in some cases be worthwhile to take up hints and at least go into the issue.

As I already wrote, it's your issue, your spiritual development, and really not my problem.
Actually I think that all you wanted to express anyway was sufficiently expressed with a "rofl"-smiley. So do as you wish and follow your way.

:)
Last edited by Adamantine on Fri May 23, 2014 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: eliminated sectarian comment
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 10:13 am

I was laughing due to this:

JKhedrup wrote:So, you feel completely qualified to judge the spiritual progress or attainments of others?
Minjeay wrote: Of those who are lower than myself - of course


It is honestly the first time I have ever encountered anyone who felt qualified to judge the attainments of others via an online forum. I was shocked that ROFL best conveyed how I viewed that presumption.

The point about the Bridge in Scientology- In Scientology based on completing certain courses you get a grade level. Scientologists relate to eachother as more or less enlightened based on these categories- like you mentioned, the various OT levels.

Buddhism is not like that. And certainly, until we possess knowledge of others minds we cannot really judge their attainments. I agree though, that bad actions should be questioned. There is a difference.

I was describing my observations, when you went in laughing about my abilities to be qualified to make those observations.


I would laugh at any statement with the level of presumption yours had-hinting at qualification to judge attainments of others while at the same time labeling others as "lower" than your self based on them disagreeing with your uninformed statements about tantra.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Thu May 22, 2014 10:20 am

JKhedrup wrote:judge the attainments of others via an online forum.


You know, when I'm talking about observations, I'm not restricting that to this forum here. If you're world-view is already so limited that you're doing that, you might well have a problem, but that, again, is not my problem.

And of course there are different levels of attainment. Like someone who has already learned mulitplication has to be firm in addition first. It's not so different for spiritual progress, and why should it be?
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 10:29 am

I don't see how this approach of singling people out for their character based on their disagreement with your views is helpful. In fact, it creates a very uncomfortable atmosphere for communication.

If this had been the first time you judged the attainments of others, I probably would have refrained from commenting. However, it is not- you made such statements before regarding people you felt were "unqualified" at dharma centres and should therefore bow down to you.

When we classify the realization or spiritual capacity of others based on feelings of attachment, aversion and indifference, we are sure to meet with conflict and misunderstanding, as previous interactions of this style on Dharma Wheel have demonstrated.

I also have this habit of discussing the faults of others, like most of us- however I do recognize it as a fault.

by Dharma Master Heng Sure:

Don't discuss the faults of others. "Others" are just thoughts in your own head. What you see as a fault in someone else comes from your discriminating mind.

Others' faults are just my own. You should return the light all the time. Shine the light on the projections of the mind and get to work crossing them over.

Being of the same substance is called Great Compassion. All thoughts come from the self-nature. When they filter up into the mind they get discriminated into good and bad, right and wrong. When the Bodhisattva practices Prajna wisdom and wipes away all thoughts as they arise, he is returning to his self-nature, to the original, fundamentally pure substance that he shares with all living beings. This is truly taking all living beings across.


And of course there are different levels of attainment. Like someone who has already learned mulitplication has to be firm in addition first. It's not so different for spiritual progress, and why should it be?


Of course my teachers have taught me about the bodhisattva bhumis, and I have read texts where they are discussed. I am not disputing that. However, it is a completely different matter than self-appointing oneself to judge the attainments of others one doesn't know in real life based on a forum, and then post those judgements for everyone to see. This is tradition is Scientology, but not in Buddhism.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Thu May 22, 2014 11:12 am

JKhedrup wrote:This is tradition is Scientology, but not in Buddhism.


Ah, yes, which is why many buddhists are so proud of dharma battles which were won by their particular sect.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 11:21 am

Well, those were more about view than attainments, but you have a point.

Hopefully, in the modern period we can evolve past that way of interacting and better embody a spirit of equanimity and forgiveness, creating a safe space for communication here on Dharma Wheel.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby plwk » Thu May 22, 2014 12:12 pm

Don't discuss the faults of others. "Others" are just thoughts in your own head. What you see as a fault in someone else comes from your discriminating mind.

Others' faults are just my own. You should return the light all the time. Shine the light on the projections of the mind and get to work crossing them over.

Being of the same substance is called Great Compassion. All thoughts come from the self-nature. When they filter up into the mind they get discriminated into good and bad, right and wrong. When the Bodhisattva practices Prajna wisdom and wipes away all thoughts as they arise, he is returning to his self-nature, to the original, fundamentally pure substance that he shares with all living beings. This is truly taking all living beings across.
I always thought that this is from the late Ven Master Xuan Hua? Which reminds me, if he and his org were true to this statement, they wouldn't need to spend time talking and criticising about whether or not other monastics in the tradition are wearing their kasayas on, eating once a day, taking on ascetic practices and whatnot... just thinking aloud
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 22, 2014 12:48 pm

You may well be right, plwk. I was just going on what it said on the Religious Forums website, where it was attributed to Ven. Heng Sure.

And yes, those at CTTB do criticize other Buddhists about the sash and other issues. But I guess we can still appreciate the spirit of what is said.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby conebeckham » Thu May 22, 2014 3:44 pm

conebeckham wrote:Just stopping by to see if there's any proof of this dangerous, destabilizing Vajrayana conspiracy.....



Nope.

:spy:

Minejay--

???
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby theanarchist » Thu May 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Minjeay wrote:
To get back to some key-part of this thread, the karma involved with letting such things happen: It is even worse than that.

It is not important whether you are infallible or not. You are in a position of power, which would allow you to hinder damage done to others, or to not care if you see harm being done.


To call it "letting it happen" the responsible person first have to know it. And a lot of abusers are pretty secretive about their acitivities. And I am sure in the Tibetan culture going to the abbot because teacher xy is approaching them in an unsuitable way is not really going to happen, even less so than in our culture.




Minjeay wrote:This is exactly why in some religions there is the claim that introducing Tantra into some country is a wise means to help destroy that country or nation, for with tantric teachings there comes abuse of good means for evil purposes, for it's just impossible to hinder that those not worthy of it will get the government about it.
It's a way to destroy a country by contributing to a development which will lead to all merit being abused, and bad karma to grow..



Lol. Just think about all the Catholic tantra priests that abused little boys. And the atheist tantra practitioners of that secular boarding school near where I live, that had over 100 confirmed cases over several decades, with one abusing teacher active as recently as 2 years ago.

And now you claim that the ones who GOVERN tantric buddhism, heads of the lineages like HHDL, Sakya Trizin, the Karmapa, Dzongsar Khyentse etc are involved in the sexual abuse of children?
Last edited by theanarchist on Thu May 22, 2014 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby theanarchist » Thu May 22, 2014 11:08 pm

Minjeay wrote:
Personal contact with persons who practice those things, and observation of their stage, development and further aims.
Not limited to persons without attainments.

Actually, those with attainments tend to be worse in many cases. Which is definitely a sad thing.



You mean, like lamas who spent decades in cruel Chinese labour camps, being tortured, starved etc and who manage to get out of this completely un-traumatized, without any grudge against their oppressors and full of love and compassion?

There is no better test for their practice and many of them passed it with flying colours.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Zhen Li » Fri May 23, 2014 5:34 am

Not every lama doesn't have a grudge. Not every lama is a torture victim. Let's be realistic.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Fri May 23, 2014 7:06 am

Certainly not. But most lamas have a family member who has been imprisoned or otherwise persecuted by PRC authorities. The rate of imprisonment and arbitrary detention is so high that you will be hard pressed to find a Tibetan who does not have at least one family member who has been impacted.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

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