Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 20, 2014 8:16 pm

Minjeay wrote:Straw man from there until the ad hominem attack:
No, that was the use of metaphor up until I asked a question regarding your intention/motivation. From where I stand it looks to me like you are trolling, since you have no sympathy for Tibetan Buddhism and are just looking for a platform to launch your baseless accusations.
But don't worry, I just saw he's registered psychologist. A registered psychologist acting like that in an official place and position tells so much about the chances in which state potential patients will leave him that I think I'll just take my fun out of it in the future, and refrain from trying to build up any kind of communication ^^
Off topic, and complete nonsense to boot.
You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?
The only thing this proves is that you have no idea what Tantric Buddhism/Vajrayana is about. That puts you in a very tenuous position when it comes to leveling criticism.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby conebeckham » Tue May 20, 2014 8:25 pm

Minjeay wrote:
conebeckham wrote:If you've got facts to back up your allegations, I am sure everyone, including mods, would like to know..or you could just leave your vague and unfounded speculations alone for everyone to see.


:)

You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?
Well, if you feel that training muscles and bodies frees you from muscles and bodies, and putting emphasis on the question whether both are in that and that shape is a way to free you from dependence on shapes, that might well be your own view of it. I don't have that much interest in having you realize anything beyond that, you know.


You understand nothing of Vajrayana, or Skillful Means, clearly, and your comments are completely unrelated to the original question I asked you--ie., a request to support your allegations that Vajrayana was being used willfully to "destabilize nations." I'm sorry you've had an incomplete Buddhist education or training, or a bad experience with a group or teacher, but your comments are absurd and disrespectful.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Tue May 20, 2014 8:29 pm

Apart from the horror for the victims, I think that what is problematic to religious institutes when it comes to sexual abuse is efforts to cover it up. We know that it happens - unfortunately these people exist, you can't really put all the blame on the institutions when individuals within the institute turn out to be abusive. What you can blame them for is how they deal with it, you can blame them for being dishonest, trying to shift the blame, or for refusing to take measures to prevent future abuse, like happened within the Catholic Church. I don't know enough about abuse within Tibetan institutions to say whether the same is true for them, but religious institutions are vulnerable to this because they like to keep a clean image.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Tue May 20, 2014 8:50 pm

If there was a coverup, this is where you can hold the higher up officials responsible.

But if there are reasonable safeguards in place and an incident happens, I don't know that you can. Because, as I posted above, even the safest and best-funded institutions are sometimes entered by child molesters and it is often years before people find out about the abuse. Many child molestors are professionals and very good at controlling situations to allow themselves to continue abusing.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 20, 2014 9:36 pm

Minjeay wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Mind your own speech and be responsible with such sweeping allegations if you're going to make them, IMO. Otherwise you are in no position to be lecturing other people on their karma.

lol, why not?

It's a mechanism. It affects me like it affects you. Whether you feel that the causes I create will lead to positive outcomes or not for me is hardly your problem.
Of course, in the role of mod, if you feel that I'm injuring religious feelings of anybody by not falling on my knees when I see someone write the word "tantra", and you feel that this injuring of religious feelings is a major problem of board rules, you might well intervene, but in this case I'd ask you to manifest in the forum rules which opinions one may have on this board here and which not.


You are posting incoherent stuff, which appears to be mostly aimed at insulting others, rather than forwarding legitimate discussion. And if it continues, I most certainly will intervene.

Here are the relevant points from the ToS:



"~ Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.
~ Proselyting/evangelizing other paths which includes for example arguing some other path is superior to the Buddhist path is not allowed."


Is that clear enough, or do you need me to spell out how your actions constitute the above behavior? Hopefully it's self-explanatory that slandering of other Buddhist paths (outside the range of normal, good faith discussion - which so far your part of this is definitely not) also is not allowed.

So basically, you need to put your money where your mouth is, and provide something of substance, otherwise it turns into ToS violation by virtue of the fact that you are unwilling or unable to post either a cogent argument, or some support for a cogent argument, and rather are just choosing to badmouth a Buddhist path.

People have certainly written things critical of Vajrayana that are fair game for discussion here, as long as it's within the confines of the ToS, there is no problem with anything like that..but carte blanche to bash Vajrayana, or Pureland, or Zen, or whatever tradition is not on the table, and it won't be put up with, as far as i'm concerned.

Hope that's clear enough.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence

Postby jiashengrox » Wed May 21, 2014 5:14 am

Minjeay wrote:Btw, @Johnny, criticising the limitations of tantra can hardly be called criticising whole buddhism, and well, you may force people to believe other things, but limits in outcome are limits in outcome. So, yes, I can absolutely assure you that attaining rainbow body is a possible outcome of tantric practice :)


So may I ask, what are the basis for your claims in the limitations of tantra? Where are the sources, or at the very least, your reasons for claiming that, and the evidence to support the claims?

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby smcj » Wed May 21, 2014 6:07 am

You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?

I guess you like the formless meditations better. Well, the completion stage of those meditations you seem to object to has those as well. Or am I completely misunderstanding you?
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Wed May 21, 2014 6:59 am

smcj wrote:
You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?

I guess you like the formless meditations better. Well, the completion stage of those meditations you seem to object to has those as well. Or am I completely misunderstanding you?


Well, in principle, for sure, the method can cover formless stuff. I'm more talking about the general aim of practice.
jiashengrox wrote:So may I ask, what are the basis for your claims in the limitations of tantra? Where are the sources, or at the very least, your reasons for claiming that, and the evidence to support the claims?

:namaste:


Personal contact with persons who practice those things, and observation of their stage, development and further aims.
Not limited to persons without attainments.

Actually, those with attainments tend to be worse in many cases. Which is definitely a sad thing.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Wed May 21, 2014 7:04 am

So, you feel completely qualified to judge the spiritual progress or attainments of others?
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Wed May 21, 2014 8:01 am

JKhedrup wrote:So, you feel completely qualified to judge the spiritual progress or attainments of others?


Of those who are lower than myself - of course.
Last edited by Adamantine on Wed May 21, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed off-topic comments
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby shaunc » Wed May 21, 2014 8:33 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
shaunc wrote:Perhaps the vow of celibacy needs to be looked at in the monastic tradition. The Japanese traditions seem to get along alright with out it, maybe making that vow optional or for a set period of time (3 months - 2 years). The Catholic Church also has a similar problem here in Australia & their priests are also supposed to be celibate.
For the vast majority of people celibacy goes against the nature of things & people have to find some form of outlet. Unfortunately this outlet can often come in the form of abuse and/or cruelty.
Physical and sexual avbuse is perpetrated by non-celibates too. And by women. And by "straights". And by...

So really it is not the main factor at play here.



Sorry Greg, but I have to disagree. While it is true that abuse can be perpetrated by all types of people in our society. I feel quite sure that celibates seem to turn up in the court reports more often than non-celibates on a per capita basis. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of good & genuine celibates out there but unfortunately there also seem to be a few that aren't. It's hard for me to make judgements about Buddhist countries, but here in Australia the Catholics seem to be a lot more prominent than the Anglicans. It would be interesting to see if Japanese Buddhism suffers this problem as much as other Buddhist countries like Thailand & Tibet that insist on having celibate monastics.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Wed May 21, 2014 8:48 am

JKhedrup wrote:
So, you feel completely qualified to judge the spiritual progress or attainments of others?

Of those who are lower than myself - of course.


:rolling: Well, I certainly can't criticize you for lack of confidence.

(in a David Miscavige type voice) Where are you on the bridge?
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby jiashengrox » Wed May 21, 2014 10:02 am

Minjeay wrote:Personal contact with persons who practice those things, and observation of their stage, development and further aims.
Not limited to persons without attainments.

Actually, those with attainments tend to be worse in many cases. Which is definitely a sad thing.


Which is personal and vague and lack solid evidence to be examined rationally. This is a logical fallacy. You cannot just mention there exists "personal contact with person who practice those things" and conclude that there is "limitation to tantra".

Minjeay wrote:Of those who are lower than myself - of course.


Ok, so may i ask who is lower than you at the current moment?

JKhedrup wrote: :rolling: Well, I certainly can't criticize you for lack of confidence.

(in a David Miscavige type voice) Where are you on the bridge?


Perhaps he is the "omniscient" one? :shrug:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 21, 2014 10:42 am

shaunc wrote:Sorry Greg, but I have to disagree. While it is true that abuse can be perpetrated by all types of people in our society. I feel quite sure that celibates seem to turn up in the court reports more often than non-celibates on a per capita basis.
Hold onto that feeling. Your feeling is going based on abuse that is reported (especially in the media). There is lots of abuse that goes unreported. That never ends up in courts or the media. I worked in an institution where there were three cases of female on male sexual abuse and one of male on male.

You know what most people said about the female on male abuse (keep in mind the victims were male teenagers): that's not abuse, they were doing the kids a favour.

That is the attitude one confronts.

I was the only member on the staff team to argue for legal action to be taken against the perpertrators, but the executives didn't want the image of the institution to be tarnished so they asked the perpertrators to quit.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Adamantine » Wed May 21, 2014 11:39 am

Thread unlocked. Please avoid any personal comments, bickering or off-topic posts in the future.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Wed May 21, 2014 2:24 pm

I think I am perfectly on topic if I just state - well, if you are a monastery, you have to set priorities. Monks are those who work for you. Those youngsters are just those cumbersome things you have to feed and you have to care for.
Where would the world end up if you left the question how to care for the latter to the cumbersome ones.

All the best with everyone's cultivation.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby tingdzin » Wed May 21, 2014 3:06 pm

Just a minor comment. Most posters seem to assume that it is adults in power who are abusing the young monks in Buddhist establishments, a la the Catholic Church. In some cases this may be true (I don't pretend to have comprehensive information), but in others (most others, I would judge) it is definitely the slightly older novices who are responsible. As one previous poster hinted, wherever you have a large number of adolescent males in a crowded, single-sex environment with little adult supervision and standards of behavior not insisted on, you are going to have pecking orders, physical and emotional bullying, and abuse (sexual and otherwise), whether this is in a Tibetan monastery, British boarding school, middle school in Texas, college fraternity, or even (according to a poster to the last incarnation of this group) Greek and Russian army barracks. I think it was a graduate of Eton who remarked that British public schools turn out 2/3 heroes and 1/3 homosexuals. "The Lord of the Flies" is not at all invention, but rather a grim fictionalized account of real human behavior. In the large monasteries of Lhasa, it was often the monastic police (dob dobs) themselves who were the worst offenders -- this has already been discussed in the scholarly literature. So it is not a new problem, nor is it peculiar to Tibetan Buddhism -- there is more than a bit of anecdotal evidence about Chinese and Japanese establishments as well, if not as recently.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby Minjeay » Wed May 21, 2014 3:27 pm

tingdzin wrote: 2/3 heroes and 1/3 homosexuals


Even if that "heroes" vs. "homosexuals" was a Freudian typo, and I hope it's not intentional rating, it might give insights.
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Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby JKhedrup » Wed May 21, 2014 4:01 pm

That's not to say that there aren't a lot of good & genuine celibates out there but unfortunately there also seem to be a few that aren't. It's hard for me to make judgements about Buddhist countries, but here in Australia the Catholics seem to be a lot more prominent than the Anglicans. It would be interesting to see if Japanese Buddhism suffers this problem as much as other Buddhist countries like Thailand & Tibet that insist on having celibate monastics.


Is your "quite sure" based on any sort of evidence or just a feeling you have? Seems like a broad generalization that ends up painting a broad category of people for a personal lifestyle decision. I am not sure it is any more benign than labeling homosexual men as being "more prone to pedophelia" for example. In the absence of evidence I would hope that people don't take your statement too seriously.

It is pretty clear to me that the problem with the Catholic Church was not connected with celibacy so much as it was connected with power. The power to, for whatever reason, shift abusers around rather than addressing the problem, which lead to tragic consequences for young people. However, it seems to me non-celibate Christian denominations are just as prone to this type of abuse, it is merely that they are not as monolithic a global entity as the Catholic Church. A few samplings:

http://culteducation.com/group/874-cler ... andal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://abcnews.go.com/US/bishop-eddie-l ... d=11721548" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the Protestant world is teetering on the edge of a sex-abuse scandal similar to the one that rocked the Catholic Church? We are joined by reporter Kathryn Joyce, whose cover story in The American Prospect profiles Boz Tchividjian, a law professor at Liberty University — a school founded by Reverend Jerry Falwell — and former prosecutor who worked on many sexual abuse cases.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/8/pr ... _sex_abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In terms of the Anglican Church, maybe in Australia the situation was different but in Canada they are just as suspect as the Catholic Church due to the abuse that took place in residential schools:

March 11, 2003

Ralph Goodale, minister responsible for Indian residential schools resolution, and leaders of the Anglican Church from across Canada ratify an agreement to compensate victims with valid claims of sexual and physical abuse at Anglican-run residential schools. Together they agree the Canadian government will pay 70 per cent of the compensation and the Anglican Church of Canada will pay 30 per cent, to a maximum of $25 million.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/a-timelin ... n-1.724434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dec. 12, 2002

Presbyterian Church settles Indian residential schools compensation. It is the second of four churches involved in running Indian residential schools that has initialed an agreement-in-principle with the federal government to share compensation for former students claiming sexual and physical abuse.
2001

Canadian government begins negotiations with the Anglican, Catholic, United and Presbyterian churches to design a compensation plan. By October, the government agrees to pay 70 per cent of settlement to former students with validated claims. By December, the Anglican Diocese of Cariboo in British Columbia declares bankruptcy, saying it can no longer pay claims related to residential school lawsuits.


Even non-celibate Jewish Groups have had problems:

The response of Brooklyn's Haredi Jewish community to allegations of sexual abuse against its spiritual leaders has drawn scrutiny. When teachers, rabbis, and other leaders have been accused of sexual abuse, authorities in the Haredi community have often failed to report offenses to Brooklyn police, intimidated witnesses, and encouraged shunning against victims and those members of the community who speak out against cases of abuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abu ... _community" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's just looking at religious institutions. Imagine if we also examined Day Care Staff, Boy Scouts, and foster parents....

This is a universal problem. To try and tar and feather one group of people as being more prone or guilty in the absence of hard evidence is irresponsible.
Last edited by JKhedrup on Wed May 21, 2014 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
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Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 21, 2014 4:16 pm

Just stopping by to see if there's any proof of this dangerous, destabilizing Vajrayana conspiracy.....



Nope.

:spy:
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