Sexual and physical abuse in religious institutions

[JKhedrup]

CBC News, Oct 8, 2004

TORONTO - Doug Brown, a former teacher at a prestigious private school in Ontario, has been found guilty on nine charges of indecent assault on young boys at the school.

In delivering his verdict Friday, Ontario Superior Court Justice Harry LaForme said he believes the hazy memories of all seven former Upper Canada College students over Brown's denials.

The judge told the court he found Brown's accounts of late night visits to the dormitory in the 1970s "fraught with serious credibility problems."

"His evidence is self-serving - it was evasive and at times argumentative," Laforme said, "and on the whole lacked the ring of truth."

Brown, 55, had pleaded not guilty on 12 charges stemming from accusations that he abused seven young boys in the school dorm rooms.

AS I said, this happened at the most prestigious private school in Toronto, perhaps in all of Ontario.

[Andrew108]

In a previous post I stated that purification practices were the way abuse was dealt with in Tibetan monasteries. That had been my experience, but I was wrong to assume it was like this in other monasteries. I apologise for the generalization that I made. It is clear that within the Gelug tradition at least monastic discipline is taken very seriously.

[jiashengrox]

In a previous post I stated that purification practices were the way abuse was dealt with in Tibetan monasteries. That had been my experience, but I was wrong to assume it was like this in other monasteries. I apologise for the generalization that I made. It is clear that within the Gelug tradition at least monastic discipline is taken very seriously.

Thank you for doing so. I think at least it has come to a fair judgement that not all (in fact, majority) of the Buddhist monasteries are absent of such atrocities. But i would definitely recommend a trip down to Sera, Ganden and Drepung to get a better idea of how Tibetan monastic communities work. It will definitely aid in the practice of Dharma.

Hope this helps for you, Andrew.

[rory]

CBC News, Oct 8, 2004

TORONTO - Doug Brown, a former teacher at a prestigious private school in Ontario, has been found guilty on nine charges of indecent assault on young boys at the school.

In delivering his verdict Friday, Ontario Superior Court Justice Harry LaForme said he believes the hazy memories of all seven former Upper Canada College students over Brown's denials.

The judge told the court he found Brown's accounts of late night visits to the dormitory in the 1970s "fraught with serious credibility problems."

"His evidence is self-serving - it was evasive and at times argumentative," Laforme said, "and on the whole lacked the ring of truth."

Brown, 55, had pleaded not guilty on 12 charges stemming from accusations that he abused seven young boys in the school dorm rooms.

AS I said, this happened at the most prestigious private school in Toronto, perhaps in all of Ontario.

So basically you're saying Ven. Khedrup that the abbots that run the monasteries are no different than school principals?
gassho
Rory

[JKhedrup]

Leave it to you Rory to misconstrue my words and jump to broad generalizations with anything to do with Tibetan institutions.

I am saying that even with the best safeguards abuse sometimes happens. UCC has a massive endowment and is home to the sons of Ontario's wealthiest families, the 1% if you will.

I was abused in the Canadian public school system. You don't see me using that as a reason to malign every single Canadian teacher or try to tear down our education system and culture. Can we really hold the Principal of UCC responsible if he didn't know or see what was going on? No we can't. Abuse is a tragedy that is not always preventable.


An abbot of a monastery with 5,000 monks cannot possibly oversee everything that happens, all the time.

As I said, I think abuse happens in Tibetan monasteries, just as in any institution with young people in it. The CBSE certification is a good way to try and introduce safeguards, but nowhere is safe. What I object to is the racist framing of a universal problem as "endemic" to Tibetans. As I mentioned before, if you said that about Afro-American communities, which do have higher rates of abuse than other communities in the US, you would be rightly called a racist.

However, it seems fine these days amongst white liberals to malign and denigrate Tibetan culture and institutions. That I find puzzling. The current myopic denigration of everything to with Tibet and Tibetans may be the current trend on Dharma Wheel, but that doesn't mean it should go unchallenged. It is every bit as destructive and unkind as broad characterizations and generalizations of African Americans, Native people or any other marginalized group.

The Tibetans are facing the extinction of their cherished culture, language and faith. Kicking a people when they are down in unkind at best, calculated at worst.

[Minjeay]

Really? Like I (the infallible moderator ) is responsible for everything you say and do on the forum?

To get back to some key-part of this thread, the karma involved with letting such things happen: It is even worse than that.

It is not important whether you are infallible or not. You are in a position of power, which would allow you to hinder damage done to others, or to not care if you see harm being done.

The decision to watch evil being done, while you are in the position of having the task or power to hinder it, creates karma for you, of course, and it doesn't matter whether you are fallible or not. You create a cause with the victim to let it suffer, and you create a karma with the person doing the evil in not helping him to avoid this evil behaviour in the future, but you support the deteriaration of that last person. That's the karma you create for yourself, with those person, and with all spiritual beings, may they be positive or negative, which have been involved in all the processes you watched and didn't hinder.

Even worse is that people in an administrative position OF COURSE also create karma for institutions, and of course groups and institutions can accumulate merit, but can also accumulate bad karma.

Being in an administrative position in a buddhist organization, getting to know about evil and tolerating it as "the karma of the victim" makes those persons in administrative positions not only responsible, and thereby accumulating bad karma, for and of the evil deed happening under their government, it also leads to deterioration of the whole system.

This is exactly why in some religions there is the claim that introducing Tantra into some country is a wise means to help destroy that country or nation, for with tantric teachings there comes abuse of good means for evil purposes, for it's just impossible to hinder that those not worthy of it will get the government about it.
It's a way to destroy a country by contributing to a development which will lead to all merit being abused, and bad karma to grow.

It is correct that it is a victims karma to be a victim, for sure.
But .. well, the victim is through it's part for this time, afterwards. Partaking in the evil deed by justifying it in any way is always a way to increasing the bad karma of the person doing evil.
I really don't get why things like these seem to be so hard to understand for persons who talk a lot about religion, and buddhism, while learning what wholesome acts are, and what non-wholesome deeds are, is one of the basic teachings you can even find in Theravada buddhism, though in this system they don't put emphasis on those teachings. Mahayana did build up the whole system around those teachings, and still when negative things happen you will see most buddhists just stand besides someone being raped and just debating about the karma of the persons involved. That they got actively involved as soon as there senses came into contact with that very scene seems to be too high level for them.

Strange is the world, sometimes.

[Grigoris]

To get back to some key-part of this thread, the karma involved with letting such things happen: It is even worse than that.

Which assumes that the abbots are letting it happen.

Let me ask something: does domestic violence happen in your community? Yes?

Are there no laws against it?

Are there no police in your community?

Are there no simple reporting procedures?

Are there no social services for victims?

Are there no social workers?

Etc...

But it still happens, right? So why, in this case, don't you assume that society lets it happen, yet in the other case...?

So why don't you try thinking through your (flimsy) argument before posting?

Do you (like Rory and Venerable Indrajala) have a chip on your shoulder too?

[shaunc]

Perhaps the vow of celibacy needs to be looked at in the monastic tradition. The Japanese traditions seem to get along alright with out it, maybe making that vow optional or for a set period of time (3 months - 2 years). The Catholic Church also has a similar problem here in Australia & their priests are also supposed to be celibate.
For the vast majority of people celibacy goes against the nature of things & people have to find some form of outlet. Unfortunately this outlet can often come in the form of abuse and/or cruelty.

[Grigoris]

Perhaps the vow of celibacy needs to be looked at in the monastic tradition. The Japanese traditions seem to get along alright with out it, maybe making that vow optional or for a set period of time (3 months - 2 years). The Catholic Church also has a similar problem here in Australia & their priests are also supposed to be celibate.
For the vast majority of people celibacy goes against the nature of things & people have to find some form of outlet. Unfortunately this outlet can often come in the form of abuse and/or cruelty.

Physical and sexual avbuse is perpetrated by non-celibates too. And by women. And by "straights". And by...

So really it is not the main factor at play here.

[Minjeay]

To get back to some key-part of this thread, the karma involved with letting such things happen: It is even worse than that.

Which assumes that the abbots are letting it happen.

Okay, so you have evidence about the disciplinary things the abbots did whenever such things got public?

That would be quite okay, so if you have, why don't you bring in THIS, instead of just playing the evil-doers game by referring to the victim's karma?

You're argumentation at which I was pointing was just defending the violence. That's a big difference to arguing with trials to get rid of those evil things, but just not succeeding completely with those trials.
If the abbots did actually disrobe those particular persons and gave them to police to get their punishment, that would be another case. But you didn't choose this part of the topic, right? You chose to take the view of "it's all karma and nobody's fault, no matter at which point of the administration people have their position".

Yes, there are policemen who themselves rape and beat their partners and children. Yes, it is difficult to bring those topics up and immediately get safe somewhere if you are a victim. Yes, a policemen or lawyer who ensures that those criminal persons doing those stuff get away with it accumulate negative karma, no matter whether they argue that it was the victim's karma to be mistreated etc.
It's a mechanism. Attacking me won't change it. Whether you take your responsibility seriously or whether you don't, and if you argue with other person's karma or not won't change it anyway - causes lead to effects. Bad cause, bad effect, good cause, good effect. Protect victim - positive cause; slaunder them by referring to their bad karma instead of showing compassion - bad cause which will just lead to yourself one day standing there alone as a victim, with nobody who'll help you and people just telling you it's your karma. Well, they won't be wrong then. But better hope to have someone around who's willing to act in a positive way instead of standing besides you and debating your case.

By the way, I don't judge at which part of the equation might be your position, that's really up to you and your deeds. It's just - attacking me really doesn't change the law, like killing a person who brings you a message doesn't kill the message.

Carrying any kind of a chip, whatever you refer to with that, is nothing that would make me write things. Fighting any kind of new world order while not even looking upon one's own misbehaviour is hypocrisy to me. But, of course, calling anybody an illuminati who talks things people don't want to hear is the more easy way to get rid of bad news

Have fun anyway

[Grigoris]

That would be quite okay, so if you have, why don't you bring in THIS, instead of just playing the evil-doers game by referring to the victim's karma?

I referred to the perpetrators karma, not the victims. Though, of course, it is the victims karma too.

If the abbots did actually disrobe those particular persons and gave them to police to get their punishment, that would be another case.

They do, depending on the offence perpetrated. There is this thing called Vinaya. Have you heard of it?

But you didn't choose this part of the topic, right? You chose to take the view of "it's all karma and nobody's fault, no matter at which point of the administration people have their position".

Straw man.

Carrying any kind of a chip, whatever you refer to with that, is nothing that would make me write things. Fighting any kind of new world order while not even looking upon one's own misbehaviour is hypocrisy to me. But, of course, calling anybody an illuminati who talks things people don't want to hear is the more easy way to get rid of bad news

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Malcolm]

I really don't get why things like these seem to be so hard to understand for persons who talk a lot about religion, and buddhism, while learning what wholesome acts are, and what non-wholesome deeds are, is one of the basic teachings you can even find in Theravada buddhism, though in this system they don't put emphasis on those teachings.

That is an entirely false claim.

Mahayana did build up the whole system around those teachings, and still when negative things happen you will see most buddhists just stand besides someone being raped and just debating about the karma of the persons involved.

That is an entirely false claim.

[DGA]

By the way, I don't judge at which part of the equation might be your position, that's really up to you and your deeds. It's just - attacking me really doesn't change the law, like killing a person who brings you a message doesn't kill the message.

Hi Minjeay,

Who has attacked you? How have you been attacked? Someone asking you to substantiate your claims with some evidence or logic is hardly an attack, it's an invitation for you to communicate with clarity and precision. This includes your lashing out against DharmaWheel staff such as Sherab Dorje and Buddhist institutions generally.

When you accuse him of standing by while all manner of horrible abuse occurs--what abuse are you speaking of, and how on earth is he responsible for it? Until you get to specifics, you are merely engaging in gossip.

If you wish to communicate serious allegations with credibility, I suggest you speak to an investigative journalist on condition of anonymity. Anonymous, general comments on an internet discussion board is no way to convince the world of the problems you see.

[Minjeay]

Let me ask something: does domestic violence happen in your community? Yes?

Straw man from there until the ad hominem attack:

}So why don't you try thinking through your (flimsy) argument before posting?

Do you (like Rory and Venerable Indrajala) have a chip on your shoulder too?

@Jikan: If the last sentence is not an ad hominem attack in your eyes, I have no idea what you would call an ad hominem ^^

But don't worry, I just saw he's registered psychologist. A registered psychologist acting like that in an official place and position tells so much about the chances in which state potential patients will leave him that I think I'll just take my fun out of it in the future, and refrain from trying to build up any kind of communication ^^

[conebeckham]

This is exactly why in some religions there is the claim that introducing Tantra into some country is a wise means to help destroy that country or nation, for with tantric teachings there comes abuse of good means for evil purposes, for it's just impossible to hinder that those not worthy of it will get the government about it.
It's a way to destroy a country by contributing to a development which will lead to all merit being abused, and bad karma to grow.

Wait, are you implying that there is some sort of conspiracy to introduce Tantra in order to destroy a nation? Really?

I'd sure like to hear more about this allegation.

[Minjeay]

Wait, are you implying that there is some sort of conspiracy to introduce Tantra in order to destroy a nation? Really?

I'd sure like to hear more about this allegation.

Well, I think I'll first wait how successfull Sherab Dorje's report of that post of mine he didn't like will end up. I don't like starting communications that get ended by mod or admin action anyway, you know.

[conebeckham]

Wait, are you implying that there is some sort of conspiracy to introduce Tantra in order to destroy a nation? Really?

I'd sure like to hear more about this allegation.

Well, I think I'll first wait how successfull Sherab Dorje's report of that post of mine he didn't like will end up. I don't like starting communications that get ended by mod or admin action anyway, you know.

If you've got facts to back up your allegations, I am sure everyone, including mods, would like to know..or you could just leave your vague and unfounded speculations alone for everyone to see.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Wait, are you implying that there is some sort of conspiracy to introduce Tantra in order to destroy a nation? Really?

I'd sure like to hear more about this allegation.

Well, I think I'll first wait how successfull Sherab Dorje's report of that post of mine he didn't like will end up. I don't like starting communications that get ended by mod or admin action anyway, you know.

How about instead you back up your extraordinary claims with specific evidence, or at least a rational argument?

FYI; The board doesn't exist as a mill for unsubstantiated rumor or hand-wringing about institutional Buddhism, you are welcome to make arguments about things like that, but if you continue to post hearsay and just general bashing, and display a complete absence of real arguments, facts, or a coherent position, it will get treated like any similar content does on the board.

Mind your own speech and be responsible with such sweeping allegations if you're going to make them, IMO. Otherwise you are in no position to be lecturing other people on their karma.

[Minjeay]

If you've got facts to back up your allegations, I am sure everyone, including mods, would like to know..or you could just leave your vague and unfounded speculations alone for everyone to see.

You mean it's not obvious to you that a school focusing on form will hardly lead you further than to form developments?
Well, if you feel that training muscles and bodies frees you from muscles and bodies, and putting emphasis on the question whether both are in that and that shape is a way to free you from dependence on shapes, that might well be your own view of it. I don't have that much interest in having you realize anything beyond that, you know.

[Minjeay]

Mind your own speech and be responsible with such sweeping allegations if you're going to make them, IMO. Otherwise you are in no position to be lecturing other people on their karma.

lol, why not?

It's a mechanism. It affects me like it affects you. Whether you feel that the causes I create will lead to positive outcomes or not for me is hardly your problem.
Of course, in the role of mod, if you feel that I'm injuring religious feelings of anybody by not falling on my knees when I see someone write the word "tantra", and you feel that this injuring of religious feelings is a major problem of board rules, you might well intervene, but in this case I'd ask you to manifest in the forum rules which opinions one may have on this board here and which not.