Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:Generally speaking, common Vajrayāna teachings hold that appearances are really just mental factors, events triggered by traces which are activated in the ālayavijñāna.

Dzogchen maintains however that appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors. Everything we perceive as external is the five lights of wisdom misconstrued as the external elements because of the imputing ignorance and so on.

OK, but I still don't see what that would have to do with, for example, saying that beings in the formless realms have physical bodies.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:54 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Generally speaking, common Vajrayāna teachings hold that appearances are really just mental factors, events triggered by traces which are activated in the ālayavijñāna.

Dzogchen maintains however that appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors. Everything we perceive as external is the five lights of wisdom misconstrued as the external elements because of the imputing ignorance and so on.

OK, but I still don't see what that would have to do with, for example, saying that beings in the formless realms have physical bodies.


That has to do with other issues specific to Dzogchen, such as the assertion that all sentient beings have the four lamps, which requires that they have eyes, etc.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Anyway as Sanderson points out, Vajrayana was only a skillful means to condition Shakta Shaivas to recognize fundamental Mahayana principles.


Are you kidding? This is common knowledge for centuries.


So I wonder why the West gets caught up in this game.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:57 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Anyway as Sanderson points out, Vajrayana was only a skillful means to condition Shakta Shaivas to recognize fundamental Mahayana principles.


Are you kidding? This is common knowledge for centuries.


So I wonder why the West gets caught up in this game.


Because we like drinking and sex, that's why. Plus, in this day and age, only Vajrayāna methods will get you there, Dzogchen being part of Vajrayāna.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Generally speaking, common Vajrayāna teachings hold that appearances are really just mental factors, events triggered by traces which are activated in the ālayavijñāna.

Dzogchen maintains however that appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors. Everything we perceive as external is the five lights of wisdom misconstrued as the external elements because of the imputing ignorance and so on.

OK, but I still don't see what that would have to do with, for example, saying that beings in the formless realms have physical bodies.


That has to do with other issues specific to Dzogchen, such as the assertion that all sentient beings have the four lamps, which requires that they have eyes, etc.


There are descriptions of lamps that don't include eyes. This is all relative.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
So I wonder why the West gets caught up in this game.


Because we like drinking and sex, that's why. Plus, in this day and age, only Vajrayāna methods will get you there, Dzogchen being part of Vajrayāna.


My teacher explains Dzogchen is beyond Tantrism. No need for initiation, tramsformations and mudra.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:18 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
There are descriptions of lamps that don't include eyes. This is all relative.


No, there are not.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:20 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
So I wonder why the West gets caught up in this game.


Because we like drinking and sex, that's why. Plus, in this day and age, only Vajrayāna methods will get you there, Dzogchen being part of Vajrayāna.


My teacher explains Dzogchen is beyond Tantrism. No need for initiation, tramsformations and mudra.


You teacher meaning ChNN?

Well then you are mistaken. One always needs the rig pa' rtsal dbang.

Of course, some people do not need to practice anuyoga methods of transformation but such people are rare — maybe you are one of that special elite group.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Because we like drinking and sex, that's why. Plus, in this day and age, only Vajrayāna methods will get you there, Dzogchen being part of Vajrayāna.


My teacher explains Dzogchen is beyond Tantrism. No need for initiation, tramsformations and mudra.


You teacher meaning ChNN?

Well then you are mistaken. One always needs the rig pa' rtsal dbang.

Of course, some people do not need to practice anuyoga methods of transformation but such people are rare — maybe you are one of that special elite group.


That's called direct transmission. It can be given Vajrayana style for those who have that expectation, is how he tells it. He never said such people are rare. If you like you can do that. He expects everyone to learn guru yoga which is Ati yoga. He definitely never said most people will need Anuyoga. In fact most people not Tibetan or Shakta never having heard of it wouldn't have that expectation.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
There are descriptions of lamps that don't include eyes. This is all relative.


No, there are not.


Yep. Definitely are.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Crazywisdom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:OK, so can you explain that? This is very interesting to me.


Generally speaking, common Vajrayāna teachings hold that appearances are really just mental factors, events triggered by traces which are activated in the ālayavijñāna.

Dzogchen maintains however that appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors. Everything we perceive as external is the five lights of wisdom misconstrued as the external elements because of the imputing ignorance and so on.


ChNN says in Dzogchen there are no eight consciousness. He goes with Madhyamaka. So the philosophical underpinnings of Vajrayana are denied.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:13 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
ChNN says in Dzogchen there are no eight consciousness.


Really, where does he say this?

Anyway, the way this is explained in Dzogchen teachings is that there is one consciousness with eight modes of appearance, Jigme Lingpa uses the example of a single monkey in a house with eight windows.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:23 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?

So, in Dzogchen, appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors, but I still don't see how this answers my question above.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:28 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?

So, in Dzogchen, appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors, but I still don't see how this answers my question above.


Yes, so Dzogchen does not refute external objects conventionally.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:Shiva is considered to be an emanation of Avalokiteśvara. The only Mahākāla who is an emanation of Avalokiteśvara is the six arm form.

But it cannot be denied that the Dharmapāla Shiva's consort is Umadevi.


Shiva as a dharmapala is considered to be an emanation of Avalokiteśvara. Are you saying that the Shiva that the Hindus worship is an emanation of Avalokiteśvara? While there are aspects which this makes sense for like Pashupatinath, there are aspects to Shiva that do not similarly correspond like Dakshinamurti corresponding to the wisdom aspect or Vatukabhairava corresponding to power.

As you are aware, there is a lot more to Uma in the Hindu tradition than the very small amount of teaching on Umadevi and Tinuma in Vajrayana, from the three lineages of Srividya to the Dashamahavidya to the tremendous amount of puranic material. There is no question that Mahadeva and Umadevi as dharmapalas arose in the experience of a mahasiddha. However, that's not the same thing as saying that Shiva/Shakti are emanations of particular Buddhist deities.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:39 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
There are descriptions of lamps that don't include eyes. This is all relative.


No, there are not.


Yep. Definitely are.


Pointless...
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?

So, in Dzogchen, appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors, but I still don't see how this answers my question above.

Yes, so Dzogchen does not refute external objects conventionally.

Well, I guess I'm still unclear about what you are saying when you assert that nadi, prana and bindu are physical. If there is no distinction between matter and consciousness in Dzogchen, then they are neither mental nor physical, or equally mental and physical. Am I missing something?
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Well, I guess I'm still unclear about what you are saying when you assert that nadi, prana and bindu are physical. If there is no distinction between matter and consciousness in Dzogchen, then they are neither mental nor physical, or equally mental and physical. Am I missing something?


They are physical because we have reified the five elements as concrete entities through the imputing ignorance. In other words, they are physical in the vision of mundane beings with afflictions like ourselves. It is the same with testing our realization with fire. If we cannot place our hand in a fire without burning it, we really ought to shut the &%#$ up about our "realization".

In other words, from the stand point of the accreted habits of ignorance built over many lifetimes, our bodies are physical, are born, abide and decay, and then we take a new one. From the standpoint of vidyā, our bodies and everything in the universe is an array of wisdom light.

People are fond of dissing the two stages, thinking that they are mighty mighty Dzogchen practitioners, but even ChNN relies heavily on the two stages and teaches then all the time. The two stages are an exercise in developing pure vision. Very necessary for everyone.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed ad hom
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:49 am

Thread re-opened.

Please refrain from personal attacks.

Thank you.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Postby Anders » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Anyway as Sanderson points out, Vajrayana was only a skillful means to condition Shakta Shaivas to recognize fundamental Mahayana principles.


Are you kidding? This is common knowledge for centuries.


Wait, what? Can you expand on that?
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As your companion in practice"

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