Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:03 pm

Jesse wrote:Psychology works with intangibles; experiences, emotions, thoughts, and habits, and that is exactly why it is considered a soft science.

Just my 2c.
Well, you can just take your 2c back buddy. You are describing psychotherapy, not psychology. I am a qualified psychologist. In order (back in my day) to qualify as a psychologist you had to be a behavioural scientist. I have spent more time gathering and analysing statistics, learning correct data evaluation techniques, learning and applying experimental models, etc... then most of my "hard science" engineer friends.

We never once asked how anybody felt or thought about anything. NEVER.

Neurobiology was big! Even "split brain theory" quacks had to prove it neurologically.

When I was an impressionable teenager I read Freud's book "The Psychopathology of Everyday Life" and thought to myself: That's it, I am going to study psychology. Boy was I wrong. The only time we studied Freud was to shoot him down in flames for drawing conclusions without utilising the scientific method.

Only during my graduate diploma in social sciences did I meet a Freudian (family therapist) and he was a quack. Actually, just about every psychotherapist I have met is a quack. To tell the truth, I consider all psychotherapists quacks. My grad dip studies were also my first encounter with therapeutic models. All sorts of dumb-ass unproven (and unprovable) nonsense. Here in Greece the Psychologists "Union" is trying to unquack the field of psychotherapy by insisting that all psychotherapists have to have psychological (scientific) or psychiatric (medical) qualifications: ie a two week course at the online university of holistic paranormal psychotherapy is just not going to be enough of a qualification any more. Actually, claiming this as a qualification will end up being grounds for legal prosecution.

PS Where I am from psychologists are not authorised to prescribe medicines of any type, that is a job for a medical professional (psychiatrist).
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby tellyontellyon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:19 pm

Actually, just about every psychotherapist I have met is a quack. To tell the truth, I consider all psychotherapists quacks.


Quack Quack! :smile:
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Nemo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:42 pm

I have received excellent medical treatment from witch doctors. One even refused payment and directed me to Western medical treatments. Practicing a broken paradigm does not exclude the ability to heal, especially if you are not in it to get paid. I did not need to believe in it either. Some practitioners transcend technique.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Lindama » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:35 pm

In California, land of psych, you have to have a PhD to be a psychologist and at least a Masters to practice psychotherapy. In either case, it's quite a thorough program. There is licensing. Even the masters receive some training in the effect of pharmaceuticals, tho neither group can prescribe them. It is important to monitor their effect and it sounds like the lack is the source of much of the concern in this conversation. I abandoned psych in the 60s precisely because it was so statistically oriented. In the 90's I was on track for a PhD and quit ABD. In the end, for me, the medical model was not what I wanted. While the training is necessary, it by no means is a guarantee that the treatment will be effective. It is a bit of a mystery how intention and treatment play together, when they do. Have to agree, it's a primitive science.

Doesn't it come down to the quality of the relationship in the end? I've known psychiatrists who are truly clueless about life, and grandma's who carry great wisdom. It seems important to acknowledge that not everyone can be cured. Indiginous peoples had compassionate ways to take care of all members in the tribe and everybody had a place.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby muni » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:31 am

AlexanderS wrote: I know quite a lot of psychology students and they mostly quite kind intelligent people.


That's right, Alexander. There are of course all kinds of people going for different reasons to study psychology or other faculty but there are those who are having the wish to help in a more respectful human way and so not in a way of merely cases or for own welfare only. There is also a lot of Buddhism by examples as looking for the I in the brain or elsewhere. There are questions as how can you be when I am not. There is for some the recognition of interdependency of all things arisen by these and so the lack of an existence on itself. There is also interess into the different kinds of consciousness. Then there can arise a genuine interess for the Buddhas teachings and practices, which include the very care for all. All this depends on the student of course.

:namaste:
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Nemo » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:26 pm

It is fascinating how different the field is from country to country. In some psychiatry/psychology are integrated. In others the two seem to be at each others throats. It seems that the very definition of the field and scope of practice changes every time you cross a border.

I did not find this with emergency or surgical interventions when I was traveling.

I am getting tired of the OR and am too old to go back to paramedicine. I have some time and would like to learn an alternative healing art. There are many involved in such practices here. What are some of the best alternate methods of healing once you have burned out on Western medicine ? I am so tired of treating symptoms.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:01 pm

Aryuveda and Tibetan medicine, and some aspects of Chinese medicine are worthwhile imo, including acupuncture.
Physiotherapy is very useful.


I would recommend avoiding homeopathy, reiki,crystals, and similar ...
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:23 pm

Nemo wrote:It is fascinating how different the field is from country to country. In some psychiatry/psychology are integrated. In others the two seem to be at each others throats. It seems that the very definition of the field and scope of practice changes every time you cross a border.
It is Psychology/psychiatry vs Psychotherapy. I don't think you will find psychologists and psychiatrists at each others throats (so much).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:35 pm

Nemo wrote:It is fascinating how different the field is from country to country. In some psychiatry/psychology are integrated. In others the two seem to be at each others throats. It seems that the very definition of the field and scope of practice changes every time you cross a border.

I did not find this with emergency or surgical interventions when I was traveling.

I am getting tired of the OR and am too old to go back to paramedicine. I have some time and would like to learn an alternative healing art. There are many involved in such practices here. What are some of the best alternate methods of healing once you have burned out on Western medicine ? I am so tired of treating symptoms.



Especially being in Canada, you should look into massage therapy...for the most part it is evidence based (as much as any CAM therapy is at the moment) and generally down to earth, basic concepts of kinesiology and anatomy and physiology that you have the advantage of probably already being familiar with. I've been told that Canada has some of the best programs for it in the world.

Naturally it is a broad and somewhat undefined field...what it am talking about is various modalities of "manual therapy" for the treatment of injuries and chronic pain mostly, rather than going to get what's termed a 'relaxation massage' where there is no real attempt at treatment, as well as er..the other massage field, which i'm sure I don't need to go into detail about.

I have a rare spinal condition and chronic pain and have benefitted immensely from massage therapy, that and tailored exercise regimens have brought me to nearly being symptom free. That's what got me to go to school for it, being convinced of it's efficacy personally after basically a lifetime of nagging (and plenty of times worse than nagging) pain. It's a very rewarding job on a personal if you can handle the wear and tear on your body, and use good body mechanics when working.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:54 pm

I have benefited personally from Chiropractic, although I know it has its critics.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Lindama » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:17 pm

Second Chiropractic, there are many styles. Also, CranioSacral (beyond Upledger). It unwound the energetic part of lymes for me. Amazing!
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby reddust » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:02 pm

If I were to become a Doctor I would go with Functional medicine. This was where I ended up when I figured out allopathic medicine and psychology/Psychiatry were not helpful to what ailed me. I read Dr. Hyman's books on the Mind and Body and took the information and fashioned my own treatments unique to me and my environment. Dr. Hyman's got a slick marketing site though, it kind of turned me off. But his data and research worked for me. The reason I got out of Nursing studies and went into law (Paralegal), was the focus on disease rather than wellness. At least with law you can find a cure to what ails the client, well most of the time if you have enough money :tongue: I researched pros and cons of allopathic and psychiatric arguments, if others were concerned about this as well and found very ancient arguments. So I wasn't the first to question the foundation of these practices.

I had so many things going wrong with me through 2003/2010 including a lower disc that had ruptured and cut off the nerves to my right leg. I had to drag my leg around for a couple years back in 2003-2005 and the pain was awful, 24/7, no insurance. No doctors would help me and Chiropractic worsened all the symptoms. I researched and researched what would work. Walking meditation was the best, it brought my reflex back but didn't stop the pain. I had to radically change my diet and move to the country to dump the pain.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:16 am

If.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:32 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:53 pm

Paulsen And Lunn's study is just one important piece of work indicating what many of us have been seeing for some years now.
To whit, that analysis based interventions are for most subjects far less effective than CBT.
There are of course variations and consequently differing outcomes between one form of analysis and another..Jungian analysis for example is notoriously poor at delivering satisfactory outcomes, despite the fact that at one time Jung was seen as embracing the truths of Dharma by some Buddhists...
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Lindama » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:27 pm

I've always thought that Jungian analysis was just right for Jung, it's the imitators that delivered a diff product because they didn't have the same sensibility. There are a few notable Jungians who did their own thing. So do you think it comes down to the individual and the orientation of the client and the nature of the relationship. Jung never wanted to be imitated, did he?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:10 pm

The fact is that all studies of Jungian therapy, and there have been many with no reason for bias , have shown little appreciable difference in the emotional lives and cognitive functioning and general well being of its clients.
The National Institute for Clinical Excellence which funds interventions given under the auspices of the British National Health Service will not license Jungian therapies as a viable option, they remain totally unconvinced that they are anything but a lifestyle choice for those who have been dubbed ' the worried well '.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby justsit » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:32 pm

Nemo wrote:I am getting tired of the OR and am too old to go back to paramedicine. I have some time and would like to learn an alternative healing art. There are many involved in such practices here. What are some of the best alternate methods of healing once you have burned out on Western medicine ? I am so tired of treating symptoms.


Other posters have offered some excellent suggestions, if you choose to remain focused on healing.

If you are looking for a different type of challenge that will utilize all your "biopsychosocial" and "Buddhist" skills, you may want to consider hospice. Your practice "rubber meets the road" here. No running away, no BS, just one being completely present to another. Surprisingly (or maybe not), you will receive more than you ever give. Not for everyone, of course.

Best wishes for whichever path you choose.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby tellyontellyon » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:35 pm

There is a great deal of discussion in the world of psychotherapy about how effectiveness is measured, and even what constitutes an 'improvement'.
The UKCP (United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy) which covers most modalities, is concerned about the validity of RCT's as a way of assessing psychotherapy. NICE also takes into account the cost/length of treatment and factors this into the forms of therapy it favours.

http://www.psychotherapy.org.uk/article961.html


The main UKCP site:
http://www.psychotherapy.org.uk/
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:35 pm

Of course NICE does. Thats its job. To ensure that interventions are both effective and affordable.
Jungian therapy falls at the first hurdle. You will not find a Trust in the UK who would fund it ....
Which means that those who insist on Jungian Therapy have to go private...
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