It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

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It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

It's a sign! - just when I needed it most, I got a sign inexplicably from the universe or something!
11
37%
Magical thinking is stupid! - be logical & you won't find yourself in such desperate situations, clinging to such desperate nonsense.
19
63%
 
Total votes : 30

Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:17 pm

smcj wrote:Wiki let me down. The only definition I found there was:

Tantra is defined as an inner realization that functions to prevent ordinary appearances and conceptions and to accomplish the four complete purities of a Buddha (environment, body, enjoyments and deeds)

That's lame, IMO.

Dzogchen is not a part of Tantra, but an independent system with its own proper view.

Atiyoga is tantra, which includes tantric Dzogchen. I'm not into Dzogchen, but the kind that isn't Atiyoga I think of as Sutrayana. Same for Mahamudra outside of tantra. Others may disagree.


Wikipedia is ok, but the question is how_ ... by tricking the mind into following sutra instead of karma :tongue:

Sutra Tantra and Dzogchen are all three different systems. Sutra is the way of renunciation, Tantra of transformation (by transforming the workings of mind) and Dzogchen of direct, spontaneous liberation.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby futerko » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:21 pm

padma norbu wrote:
futerko wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I've never seen anything remotely like your definition of tantra before. It sounds more like a western occultist's definition of tantra.


It looks to me like a fairly standard (and obvious) way of describing tantra.


Do you have any links or sources to back that up, then?


viewtopic.php?f=86&t=14692#p196764

"The characteristic of the path of the tantric ascetic is that of creating a nice make-up of reality."
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:24 pm

It's just got my interest because I never quite heard it put so... it sounds like something Peter Carroll would say. I'm not sure if he invented it or Austin Spare, but the term he uses is "sleight of mind."

For example:

Vice: So, Mr. Magician, what kind of tricks can you do?

Peter J. Carroll: There is a range of core techniques for inducing altered states of consciousness and achieving “sleight of mind.” Most of these techniques have survived since the days of ancient shamanism. In Chaos Magic we use these practices to achieve a gnostic state. They include yoga, tantra, psychoactive substances, sexuality, chanting, drumming, ecstatic dance, dreaming, and many others. The Chaos Magician concentrates on an abstract or analogical representation of desire, rather than on a direct representation of it, and then uses some form of gnosis to bring the much more powerful subconscious into operation, thus actualizing his or her wishes.

from http://www.vice.com/read/chaos-magician-132-v15n10

More about "sleight of mind" from Peter Carroll here:
http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/som.html
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:26 pm

futerko wrote:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=14692#p196764

"The characteristic of the path of the tantric ascetic is that of creating a nice make-up of reality."


Is "creating a nice make-up of reality" the same thing? I didn't realize we were making up mandalas out of wholecloth that weren't really there in order to eventuate their reality. I was under the impression that these mandalas and visions of reality already had some reality, albeit as empty as our own.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby smcj » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:27 pm

Sutra Tantra and Dzogchen are all three different systems. Sutra is the way of renuciation, Tantra of transformation (by transforming the workings of mind) and Dzogchen of direct, spontaneous liberation.

The Nyingma school has Dharma broken down into a 9 yana system:

The Sutra System
1. Shravakayana (Hinayana) the Vehicle of the Listeners or disciples.
2. Pratyekayana (Hinayana) the Vehicle of the Solitary Buddhas, the way of solitary meditation.
3. Bodhisattvayāna (Mahayana) the Great or Causal Vehicle, the Vehicle of Enlightened Beings, is the way of those who seek or attain enlightenment for the sake or intention of liberating not just oneself, but all sentient beings from Saṃsāra.
Outer/Lower Tantra
4. Kriya (Wylie: bya ba'i rgyud) Tantra of Action
5. Carya or Ubhaya (Wylie: u pa'i rgyud or spyod pa'i rgyud) Tantra of Conduct
6. Yogatantra (Wylie: rnal 'byor gyi rgyud) Tantra of Union
Inner/Higher Tantra
7. Mahayoga (Wylie: chen po'i rnal 'byor) Great Yoga
8. Anuyoga (Wylie: rjes su rnal 'byor) Subsequent Yoga
9. Atiyoga/Dzogchen (Wylie: lhag pa'i rnal 'byor or rdzogs chen) Ultimate Yoga; The Great Perfection

There is no separate 10th 'yana' for Dzogchen. In the Sarma traditions there's tantric Mahamudra and sutra Mahamudra. I just assumed that the same goes for the Nyingmas as well, there being a certain amount of symmetry to the systems. So that's why I see what you are calling 'Dzogchen' that isn't tantric as being part of the Sutra path.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby futerko » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:30 pm

padma norbu wrote:
futerko wrote:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=14692#p196764

"The characteristic of the path of the tantric ascetic is that of creating a nice make-up of reality."


Is "creating a nice make-up of reality" the same thing? I didn't realize we were making up mandalas out of wholecloth that weren't really there in order to eventuate their reality. I was under the impression that these mandalas and visions of reality already had some reality, albeit as empty as our own.


I guess it depends which reality is more empty than the other. :tongue:
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:31 pm

The traditional way to explain the difference between the paths of Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen goes by the analogy of poison (kleshas)

Sutra: one looks for and applies the antidotes by avoiding (renunciation) the contact with those poisons and concentrating on virtues and wholesome actions.
Tantra: is like an ayurvedic physiscian - transforms the poisons into medicine and utilizes them - the way of trasformation
Dzogchen: is like a peacock - eats the poison instead of avoiding or transforming it, and instead of becoming sick it makes it stronger, and having even more beautiful feathers - the way of direct, spontaneous liberation/enlightenment/realization.

@smcj check your facts, there is nothing supporting your view of Dzogchen belonging to sutra. On the contrary, Dzogchen is considered to be the highest path both by Nyingma and Bon, higher than Sutra or Tantra.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby smcj » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:38 pm

@smcj check your facts, there is nothing supporting your view of Dzogchen belonging to sutra. On the contrary, Dzogchen is considered to be the highest path both by Nyingma and Bon, higher than Sutra or Tantra.

So you are saying that there is a 10th yana? You might want to check your facts.

But I really don't care about how you classify Dzogchen. I have no interest. However I do feel bummed that I can't come up with an authoritative definition of tantra. I don't even know which book to go to! I guess I'll just have to wait for Malcolm or Cone to post.
:thinking:
Last edited by smcj on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:41 pm

futerko wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
futerko wrote:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=14692#p196764

"The characteristic of the path of the tantric ascetic is that of creating a nice make-up of reality."


Is "creating a nice make-up of reality" the same thing? I didn't realize we were making up mandalas out of wholecloth that weren't really there in order to eventuate their reality. I was under the impression that these mandalas and visions of reality already had some reality, albeit as empty as our own.


I guess it depends which reality is more empty than the other. :tongue:


That sounds like a one-liner to avoid the specifics I've raised.

Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:42 pm

smcj wrote:I really don't care about how you classify Dzogchen. I have no interest. But I do feel bummed that I can't come up with an authoritative definition of tantra. I don't even know which book to go to! I guess I'll just have to wait for Malcolm or Cone to post.
:thinking:


Just read the books of Ch. Namkhai Norbu, that should be enough :roll:
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby futerko » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:43 pm

padma norbu wrote:That sounds like a one-liner to avoid the specifics I've raised.

Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.


What is the difference between a pure view and an impure one? Is it maybe that one recognises emptiness while the other doesn't?
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:44 pm

futerko wrote:
padma norbu wrote:That sounds like a one-liner to avoid the specifics I've raised.

Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.


What is the difference between a pure view and an impure one? Is it maybe that one recognises emptiness while the other doesn't?


Why can't you just answer my question directly instead of now for the second time not answering the question, specifically?
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:49 pm

padma norbu wrote:Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.


This is not Advaita Vedanta, so there exists more than one mind.
This means, that all those minds are creating and influencing "reality" which we may take part of.
Deities, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas exist the same way as we do, visualizing their mandalas means connecting to their minds, realities etc.
Using their Bija Mantra means participating in the very essence of their mind, in a most intimate way.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby Kunzang » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Why does every thread on Dharmawheel turn into an argument about dzogchen? It must be the universe trying to tell me something.

:rolling:
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby smcj » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:51 pm

Just read the books of Ch. Namkhai Norbu, that should be enough :roll:

if A=B, and B=C, then A=C
Dzogchen is Atiyoga. Atiyoga is tantra. Dzogchen is tantra.

Unless of course it is not, then it must be one of the other 8 yanas. Given the parallel practice of sutra Mahamudra in the Sarma traditions, it is easy to see how I'd categorize it.

Or maybe ChNN says there is a 10th yana, which he might very well say, but it is news to me. In any case I really don't care. It's just a classification!
Last edited by smcj on Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:51 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.


This is not Advaita Vedanta, so there exists more than one mind.
This means, that all those minds are creating and influencing "reality" which we may take part of.
Deities, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas exist the same way as we do, visualizing their mandalas means connecting to their minds, realities etc.
Using their Bija Mantra is participating in the very essence of their mind, in a most intimate way.


That is a detailed way of saying that I am correct in what I have learned. Thank you.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby tatpurusa » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Are we making up mandalas out of wholecloth that aren't really there in order to eventuate their reality? OR do those mandalas and visions of reality already have some reality, albeit as empty as our own? From what I have been taught, they exist, but we don't have that particular karmic vision.


This is not Advaita Vedanta, so there exists more than one mind.
This means, that all those minds are creating and influencing "reality" which we may take part of.
Deities, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas exist the same way as we do, visualizing their mandalas means connecting to their minds, realities etc.
Using their Bija Mantra is participating in the very essence of their mind, in a most intimate way.


That is a detailed way of saying that I am correct in what I have learned. Thank you.


Yes. This is the trick we use in order to transform our own minds, so that :lol: it too follows sutra instead of karma ..
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:58 pm

smcj wrote:
Just read the books of Ch. Namkhai Norbu, that should be enough :roll:

if A=B, and B=C, then A=C
Dzogchen is Atiyoga. Atiyoga is tantra. Dzogchen is tantra.

Unless of course it is not, then it must be one of the other 8 yanas. Given the parallel practice of sutra Mahamudra in the Sarma traditions, it is easy to see how I'd categorize it.

Or maybe ChNN says there is a 10th yana, which he might say, but it is news to me. In any case I really don't care.


Namkhai Norbu himself explains that there are three paths: the path of renunciation (which I presume is sutra), the path of transformation, which I know is tantra, and the path of self-liberation, which is dzogchen practice. So, it really can't be tantra, can it? Dzogchen practitioners utilize tantric methods if they want, but dzogchen practice itself is different since it is not about transforming anything.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby padma norbu » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:59 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
padma norbu wrote:That is a detailed way of saying that I am correct in what I have learned. Thank you.


Yes. This is the trick we use in order to transform our own minds, so that :lol: it too follows sutra instead of karma ..


Yes, I get that. How you had put it before I was not parsing it the way you had intended me to, so that is why I was asking for more clarification. In fact, I had taken it completely the wrong way, which didn't help me at all, so I'm glad we cleared that up.
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Re: It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Postby smcj » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:03 pm

Atiyoga is tantric Dzogchen. It is tantra.

Non-tantric Dzogchen is slightly different. Non-tantric Mahamudra is sutra Mahamudra. So as I've said, if the parallel systems are consistent, then non-tantric Dzogchen is sutra Dzogchen. Or maybe not, but that's how the Sarma traditions are classified.

ChNN has some unusual perspectives. He is an authentic teacher and what he says is valid. But what he says isn't always mainstream. I personally can't think of anyone else with quite his take on things. That's ok. What he is teaching is legitimate. But try to name someone that has the same perspective that isn't a student of his, and you'll have to look pretty hard.

So, if you like his presentation and are a student of his, you should appreciate him all the more for this. I'm sure people that have been around the block a few times already do.
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On a personal note, I find ChNN to be a bit outside my comfort zone. My teacher picked up on that, and made the point to validate ChNN's approach and teachings. So I'm checkmated in a way. No matter how much I want to be a closed minded ****head, I can't do it.
Last edited by smcj on Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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