Dharma Wheel

I am an occasional magical thinker, and an occasional hard-boiled rationalist....but always deep in the mire of samsara. That is madness...the madness we all share.

Is there any way to practice Tibetan Buddhism and not be involved in what atheists would consider magical thinking? I'd think once one accepts rebirth, let alone such minutiae as oath-bound dharmapalas, divinations, etc, its all one big hoodoo throwdown from a strict rationalist's perspective.

M.G. wrote:Is there any way to practice Tibetan Buddhism and not be involved in what atheists would consider magical thinking? I'd think once one accepts rebirth, let alone such minutiae as oath-bound dharmapalas, divinations, etc, its all one big hoodoo throwdown from a strict rationalist's perspective.

I think this only applies in regard to externality, and not if one applies the "hoodoo" simply to the vagaries of one's own imagination.

futerko wrote:

M.G. wrote:Is there any way to practice Tibetan Buddhism and not be involved in what atheists would consider magical thinking? I'd think once one accepts rebirth, let alone such minutiae as oath-bound dharmapalas, divinations, etc, its all one big hoodoo throwdown from a strict rationalist's perspective.

I think this only applies in regard to externality, and not if one applies the "hoodoo" simply to the vagaries of one's own imagination.

Hmmmmm..... I suppose that's true. Would that be an exclusively American interpretation of Tibetan Buddhism? My understanding is that the 'hoodoo' was largely taken literally in Asia.

M.G. wrote:Is there any way to practice Tibetan Buddhism and not be involved in what atheists would consider magical thinking? I'd think once one accepts rebirth, let alone such minutiae as oath-bound dharmapalas, divinations, etc, its all one big hoodoo throwdown from a strict rationalist's perspective.

Only the scientific worldview based on atheism and philosophical materialism corresponds with the strict rationalist's view.
Though there might be some overlapping fields, no tradition of Buddhism, be it Zen, Dzogchen, Theravada or whatever else,
truely corresponds to that particular view.

M.G. wrote:

futerko wrote:

M.G. wrote:Is there any way to practice Tibetan Buddhism and not be involved in what atheists would consider magical thinking? I'd think once one accepts rebirth, let alone such minutiae as oath-bound dharmapalas, divinations, etc, its all one big hoodoo throwdown from a strict rationalist's perspective.

I think this only applies in regard to externality, and not if one applies the "hoodoo" simply to the vagaries of one's own imagination.

Hmmmmm..... I suppose that's true. Would that be an exclusively American interpretation of Tibetan Buddhism? My understanding is that the 'hoodoo' was largely taken literally in Asia.

I dunno, I'm not in either Asia or America, so I guess I'm somewhere in between, middle way and all that...

It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

Where is the "neither of the above" option?!

I am a very magical thinker, that's where are my painting ideas come from. But I am also very practical and logical because I need to eat and have a warm place to sleep. I need both or my world would be very extreme, either dull and gray or six flags amusement park.

I think the poll presents us with a false dichotomy. There is a way to acknowledge, and open oneself to, the experience of synchronicity without lapsing into "magical thinking".

I announced recently on a forum that I hadn't seen a porpoise for ages - then 2 days later I actually saw a porpoise! So logically this means that either magical thinking works, or that porpoises read Buddhist forums and are very obliging....

AnShen wrote:I think the poll presents us with a false dichotomy.

Rationality often does.

porpoise wrote:

AnShen wrote:I think the poll presents us with a false dichotomy.

Rationality often does.

Some things are signs, some things are not?

porpoise wrote:I announced recently on a forum that I hadn't seen a porpoise for ages - then 2 days later I actually saw a porpoise! So logically this means that either magical thinking works, or that porpoises read Buddhist forums and are very obliging....

No silly, it is the Universe that reads the Buddhist forums, the porpoises just do the obliging.

Have you never seen Universe [Bot] at the bottom of the page?

... be careful, porpoises are directly born from avidyā

porpoise wrote:I announced recently on a forum that I hadn't seen a porpoise for ages - then 2 days later I actually saw a porpoise! So logically this means that either magical thinking works, or that porpoises read Buddhist forums and are very obliging....

The other day, I randomly thought of the word "chimera" while waiting on line at the post office with my wife and remembered how I used to pronounce it all wrong as a kid. I asked her how she pronounces the word and spelled it out. She pronounced it wrong like I used to as a teenager. I told her the correct pronunciation and said, "doesn't that sound funny?" We left the post office and went to the library where I got a few books, one of which was "Going Clear" about Scientology (an exposé, not a religious book). On the first page of the Introduction was the description of L. Ron Hubbard which included the word "chimerical"... Coincidence?!?!

Does anyone every take a sign with them while passing one on the road? Same goes with signs I noticed through the day. Sometimes it seems as if the world is constantly talking to me, this was really noticeable when I first started meditating. Signs like synchronicity, déjà vu, you hear a song that you just thought about, know who is calling and when they will call used to happen all the time. Signs like that are not as strong, probably have to do with integration, sometimes I make notes if I want to remember an idea that comes up with what ever sign I have noticed. There are also signs like like a crow flying by, or a certain glint of snow that caste rainbows of light, or a bull frog that stops and lets me pick him up, something someone says, these signs trigger ideas for paintings to come and visit or how to resolve a problem or write an equation…the world really is a magical place full of signs. They are nice, make life really interesting too, and sometimes signs come in handy and prevent you from being run over like stop signs on the road. My dreams have the best signs though, amazing stories as well, really the world is a very magical place. What is simply amazing is we see the world from the inside of our head where there is no light to see! I think everything is a sign in this world

padma norbu wrote:

porpoise wrote:

AnShen wrote:I think the poll presents us with a false dichotomy.

Rationality often does.

Some things are signs, some things are not?

I was thinking of logical fallacies.

tatpurusa wrote:... be careful, porpoises are directly born from avidyā

No, they're born from mummy and daddy porpoises..

padma norbu wrote: Coincidence?!?!

Yes, coincidences can seem very strange at times - but maybe they're just coincidences?

porpoise wrote:Yes, coincidences can seem very strange at times - but maybe they're just coincidences?

I agree.

Coincidences by their nature are very rare, but we are very attuned to noticing them.

As an exercise, think of how much of what we perceive that are not coincidences. Almost all of it.