where/how to get a robe?

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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Seishin » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:55 pm

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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:19 pm

You could go to a store that sells Halloween costumes. I'm sure they would have some monks outfits for sale.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby yunghung » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:21 pm

Whats a name of a store that sells halloween stuff?
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby yunghung » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:17 pm

im 17
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:23 pm

This thread is temporarily locked for cleaning. If anyone has any issue with the new member, any speculation, etc. do not post it here in an open forum-- that will be treated as an ad-hom attack and you will receive a formal warning. If you have any issues, report the post in question in the formal protocols of the website and the moderators and admins will address the issue privately.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:23 am

Topic unlocked: play nice.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby shaunc » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:11 am

I don't understand why you'd want/need a robe. People can get all sorts of costumes (policeman, fireman, cowboy, etc) but that doesn't make them the real McCoy. The best way to show your Buddhism to people at large isn't by your clothing but by your behaviour. Ever heard of the saying, don't judge a book by it's cover.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby ClearblueSky » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:09 am

I guess it's been made pretty clear that an actual monk's robe is considered a big no no for the un-ordained. But you know what, if you really want some other sort of robe, and you feel like it will help your practice, who am I to stop you. I suppose we all want different "tools" at different stages of our practice. There's obviously attachments and delusions that can be attached to clothing, and all sorts of things, but if it's what you need to get you to start meditating, then go for it.
I think the real issue is the question itself though. You are asking where to get it, but not online. Then there's been some recommendations of different types of stores you could try, but you're asking for the actual name of a particular store. Unless someone actually lives in your town with you, I'm really not sure how we'll be able to help. If it's that meaningful to you anyway, I think you're going to need to just search around.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:53 am

Well, in reply to all the naysayers: it is actually quite common within the Nyingma for non-monasticly-ordained Lamas to wear garb that is nearly identical to the ordained.

Here is an image of many people's favorite flavor of that: Image

Also, any novice monk, as soon as they start studying Dharma no matter how young or educated will start wearing the same robes... and they definitely have not ordained: Image

So, please stop being so didactic.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:02 pm

In all cases I am aware of the young monastics do go through at least the ragjung, or leaving home ceremony. Some even receive the getsul or sramanera vows.
DKR does not wear tge patched robes or yellow chogu of an ordained monk, though I do agree to the untrained eye most wouls assume he is a fulky ordained monk by observibg his clothes.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:47 pm

JKhedrup wrote:In all cases I am aware of the young monastics do go through at least the ragjung, or leaving home ceremony. Some even receive the getsul or sramanera vows.
DKR does not wear tge patched robes or yellow chogu of an ordained monk, though I do agree to the untrained eye most wouls assume he is a fulky ordained monk by observibg his clothes.


Right, but maybe it'd be good if you could explain that difference to everyone..

And then the OP and anyone else who inquires in the future can be informed that
there is a tradition of wearing much the same dress even without the ordination.

I don't know about the ceremonies young monastics engage in, but at age 3 or 4 whatever
ritual they may undergo it'd be hard to claim they are willfully choosing to do it purely from their
own volition, therefore in my eyes rendering it more of an exercise.

I mean I've seen young "monks" running around trying to kill bugs. They don't even have the
most basic precept of not killing down!
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:59 pm

I'm not a huge fan of ordaining young children either. In terms of people not holding monastic vows wearing monastic robes, in exceptional cases like DKR I would not dare to voice an objection. However in most cases it can create confusion- and has been lightly criticized by both HH Dalai Lama and HH Karmapa during teachings I have attended.

The Rabjung or leaving home ceremony is used by many Buddhist traditions as a sort of pre-novice ceremony. Basically, the ordinand makes the promise to leave home and abandon the marks and signs of a layperson. It is sort of a halfway point between lay and monastic life. Later, novice or getsul vows will be taken. From ven. Thubten Chodron:
http://www.thubtenchodron.org/Publicati ... ndix1.html
Rabjung (leaving the lay life of a householder)


This is a prerequisite for novice ordination. First one requests the ordination and a bhikshu (who has been ordained at least ten years) to be one's abbot. A bhikshu other than the abbot asks one to prostrate to all the sangha present and to remove the white clothing of a lay person. He requests the abbot on one's behalf to be one's abbot and to ordain one. From then on, one refers to that person as one's abbot. (One removes the white clothing of a lay person either by changing from white clothes into monastic robes, or symbolically by wearing and then removing a white kata.). One takes up the name, dress, signs, and way of thinking of an ordained one. One should now have a zen (upper robe; the chogu is not yet needed), shamtab (lower robe), dingwa (seating cloth), bowl (with a few seeds or other food in it so it is not empty), and water filter (The bowl and water filter may be borrowed. The robes must be one's own.). These are all determined by the abbot and oneself. Both hold their left hands below each article and right hands above it, and do a recitation to determine the article as being one's object of use. It is explained that the robes are to distinguish one from lay people and members of other sects and to protect one from insects and the elements. One should consider them as being only for these purposes (not for beautifying oneself). The purpose of the other articles is explained, i.e. the bowl for eating food, the dingwa to distinguish one as a Buddhist monastic and to protect the community's property when sitting, the water filter to prevent killing insects when using water. One is aware that now one is shaving the head and leaving the householder's life. One's hair is cut (prior to coming to the ceremony, one's head is shaved, leaving a small tuft at the crown, which is cut now), after which flowers or rice are thrown to rejoice at one's leaving the householder's life.

One prostrates to the Buddha and the abbot, and then kneels. The abbot advises: "It is excellent to be ordained. There is a great difference between lay and ordained people. All the Buddhas of the three times become enlightened only on the basis of ordination. There are none who do so from the basis of a lay person. One accumulates infinitely more positive potential (merit) by taking one step towards the monastery with the thought of ordaining than do the sentient beings of the three worlds by making offerings, even of their spouses and children, for eons. Due to the distractions of lay life, lay people are unable to accomplish very meaningful or helpful things for the future. From this, only future suffering can arise. Through abandoning these activities and having few possessions, ordained people can cultivate hearing, thinking and meditating. From this, both temporary happiness and ultimate nirvana can be reached. One is following in the footsteps of the Buddha himself." While listening to this advice, have a mind of faith and belief in the abbot, seeing him as a wise parent and oneself as the son or daughter.

Upon taking rabjung, one abandons the signs (dress, hair, etc.) and name of lay life. One takes the name given by the abbot.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:12 pm

:good: and informative. :smile:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:48 pm

Thanks for the informative reply JKhedrup. If you have specific quotes from HHDL and HHK about what precisely they are criticizing please do add them.

From my side, I will share an excerpt of this lengthy and informative article about Ngakpas by the late Ngakpa master Kyabje Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche:

In bordering countries such as Bhutan and Sikkim, there are ngakpas who don’t keep their hair long or wear white skirts. They dress in monk’s clothing, but have wives and are family lineage holders. They are called ‘serkyim’ ngakpas.


http://saraswatibhawan.org/an-historic-description-of-awareness-holders-of-the-great-secret-mantra-who-are-resplendent-in-white-clothes-and-long-hair/
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby ClearblueSky » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:59 pm

Ngakpas wear robes despite not being ordained as monks, but they do still hold vows, and may not have gotten those robes without holding those vows. There's definitely lineages where you are able to wear the striped zen, but only after you hold the 14 samayas. I'm sure there's other teachers that say it's okay to wear that or monastic-similar clothing at any point though, guess it's all about your motivation.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Seishin » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:44 pm

Motivation is the key here. Well said.
Last edited by Seishin on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:52 pm

If a young person, perhaps from past life karma, feels the desire to wrap themselves in a zen or other dharma clothing, I don't think it should be outright discouraged. Maybe wearing a zen while meditating could create an auspicious feeling for them and help past life seeds ripen, accelerating their practice or furthering their approach to serious study.

That said, unless directed to by a teacher, it is better not to wear these things around publicly, because this could become both spiritual materialism (food for the ego) and a false representation of who one is and the level of one's knowledge.

That's my 2¢ anyway!
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:30 pm

The comments from HHDL and HH Karmapa were both during teachings I attended while living in India. I'd have no idea where to look for written records but if I do find something eventually I will certainly post it.

I remember at the Kagyu Monlam there were a few kerfuffles because the ordained monks and nuns were seated at the front, and several ngakpas tried to enter that section and were turned away.... I even got in trouble for offering one who snuck in a seat beside me.

At the same time, I remember being turned away from a puja that I had the transmission for while a monk because the event was for "ngakpas only". So I guess it works both ways.

What I wish is that we could all rejoice in any one who is serious and willing to make sacrifices for their practice. In the end that is what makes all the difference anyways. I realize that only a few will ever be really suited to the monastic lifestyle.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:43 pm

If you have specific quotes from HHDL and HHK about what precisely they are criticizing please do add them

Adamantine- Found HH Karmapa's comments on this:

http://www.kagyumonlam.org/English/Lect ... Codes.html

All words from HH Karmapa himself.

I also have something to say about clothing, bearing, and demeanor. I thought about saying something last year, but it’s not easy to talk about this. But this year, if I embolden myself and say something about it, it will probably be OK. I said something about this in either 2003 or 2001. In the Buddhist tradition, there are two types of practitioners: monastics and householders. The monastics are monks and nuns, and the householders have households, and they have different garb and different demeanors. Otherwise, if the monastics get confused with the householders, or the householders get mixed up with the monastics, it will become very difficult for other people develop faith. It will be difficult to identify who is what. We won’t be able to identify whether someone is a monastic or a tantric practitioner. We won’t be able to tell people apart.

Even among our rinpoches, there are householders. I’m not at all saying that this is not good. Really. For example, Marpa and Milarepa, for whom we have the greatest devotion, were also householders. They did not wear the three Dharma robes. That’s how it is. This is not a question of more or less important. Even if you are a householder, you can have qualities of purity and realization that are superior to a monastic’s, and a monastic can have qualities of purity and realization that are superior to a householder’s. This is not a question of more or less important, but householders should wear the clothing of householders, and monastics should wear the clothing of monks and nuns. Otherwise, it will get all mixed up.

Those of us who know and understand might think this is OK as it is, but those who don’t know probably think that everyone who wears red robes is the same. If they see one person wearing red robes and the Dharma robe acting like a householder with a spouse and children, they will probably think that everyone who wears the robes is like that. They’ll think that everyone who wears red is the same. For that reason, you should really think about this. Think about what you should do. I don’t have any specific suggestions here. We should all cherish the Dharma and figure out what is the best way to act on this. I ask you all to consider this and then take some appropriate actions.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: where/how to get a robe?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Sure, this makes sense. But HHK is leaving out the category of ngakpas. In this text I already linked to, KDR differentiates clearly between ngakpas and householders:

Again, in this place, ngakpas have bald heads and wear informal chupas. They pretend to be ngakpas but they spend their lives doing business and performing rituals for ordinary pursuits, so they are neither ngakpas nor monks. The ordinary chupa is the dress of worldly, lay people.

It is clear there is an authentic and long standing tradition of two "sanghas":

Ever since the time of the meeting of the three masters, Khenpo Shatarakshita, Lopon Padmasambhava and the Dharma King, Trison Detsen in 8th century Tibet, there were two divisions of sangha, known as the sangha of monastics with shaven-heads and the saffron robes (rab byung ngur smig gi sde) and the sangha of ngakpas with white clothes and long, plaited hair (gos dkar lcang lo’I sde).

And here he criticizes ngakpas who shave their heads and wear monastic clothing, just to be clear there is a common view:

It is our own fault that ngakpas are belittled. It is fine for a ngakpa to be a father, but when ngakpas enter the assembly hall and are afraid to sit in the assembly row, then they shave their heads or wear monastic clothing as well as shave their heads, when they wear ordinary chupas and do not dress in the various accouterments of ngakpa attire, this is what happens.

This also reflects the prejudice you witnessed regarding ngakpas being turned away from the assembly row.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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