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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:11 pm 
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seeker242 wrote:
gandy wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
I don't see how this is proof of no afterlife as none of these people actually died! You can't prove there is no afterlife, it's impossible.


what can you prove?


All I can prove is that it is impossible to prove there is no afterlife. One can speculate until their face turns blue, but proof is an entirely different matter. :namaste:


It shouldn't be that surprising to be reborn again especially after we've been born once already and are clueless as to why, exactly.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:20 pm 
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undefineable wrote:
@KonchokZoepa: If every aspect of everything were completely interconnected, then how could there be any form of literal rebirth? Consciousness appears to itself to exist independently, and is said to experience rebirth as part of this delusion; a Buddha, on the other hand, rightly seeing things as fundamentally interconnected, has no need to be reborn :shrug: :thinking:



well i dont know what you are asking me, for you seemed to answer it already, and i agree with what you said.

and you seemed to also answer the question that when you come to experience directly and realize the interconnectedness in its true form you go beyond samsara. you realize the emptiness of an independently or inherently existing me , i or a self. an buddha is just that, who has that realization. awakened.


but the post i wrote on this matter, i just wanted to make something arguable and logical, based on examination and not belief.

i can not say anything about buddha having to take rebirth, i think in heart sutra it is said that there is no end to birth and death, and that there is no birth and death. i think that comes to make the point that there is and isn't. when you are a buddha there is no normal death and rebirth because you have freed yourself from fundamental delusion, samsara and thus are free of suffering and your mind is not limited to perceiving itself as a concept ie body. but that buddha doesnt take rebirth at all i think heart sutra goes against that by saying there is no end to end death and birth. i could go on more about this matter and make my points and arguments but i think that conversation doesnt belong to this thread.

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If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:38 pm 
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gandy wrote:

a. if I'm right I will die it's all lights out and all of this never mattered in the first place
b. if you are right I will be forced by the universe to reincarnate as many times until I will be forced to realize your stuff on my own
c. if neither of us is right, than we both have wasted years on nothing

the only thing in buddhism for which there is proof is mindfulness meditation which is 1% of the teachings and it's not really a buddhist thing in the first place, I think I will keep that and discard the rest of your stuff for which there is no proof


As for your first point, the Dharma matters because it can enable you to be free from suffering- permanently. This is the wish of every being, it is why people seek love, distraction, intoxication, money, and so forth. Everyone wants happiness, to be free from suffering. Dharma can offer that in an unchanging way. Even if there is no afterlife, you can live the rest of the ONLY life you have free from suffering, not to mention able to help others, not to mention being fulfilled, happy, joyous, blissful, and even at times wise. It can give meaning to even the single, limited, short life you may be living right now.

As for your second point, its not about being forced to realized Buddhism. Buddhism is just a representation and collection of symbols that point a person in the direction that enables them to eliminate suffering. Thats the whole purpose of Buddhism, not to push some religious ideal or cosmology onto people, its not about forcing people to do anything. You CHOOSE to do with your life what you want, that is karma. The results are karma. If you choose to not engage Dharma thats fine. Every person is a sovereign individual free to do whatever they like. If you want to be free from suffering though, its probably wise to listen to the people who themselves are free from suffering in regards to how to do that. If you listen to modern media and society, you will just find yourself in a world of darkness and pain like so many people in our world today. You will end up doing "mindfulness meditation" while on a cocktail of drugs to alleviate your pain, that is the way of modern society and science.

As for your third point, if neither of us are right, I will live my life fulfilled, full of joy and free of suffering, seeking to help others as much as I can. Furthermore I will live it without superstition or the trappings of religion, able fully to appreciate, participate in and take advantage not only of the spiritual depths that humanity has to offer, but also the material knowledge as well. In essence I will be able to fulfill every facet of my being through Dharma because of how it allows for both science and religion to co-exist and because it allows its practitioners a lot of personal freedom and leeway in terms of their specific beliefs. When I die, I will look back on a life of wonder, joy, clarity, happiness and bliss, and a life full of moments of helping other beings and doing my best to alleviate the suffering of others. Although it may not matter in some ultimate sense, in a relative way I will have lived my life to the best of my ability, and my life will not be polluted by darkness, suffering and loss. I will die without fear because even if I face oblivion I will face it with a clear, fresh, joyous and open awareness. I will be unafraid because I will have realized fully that this world and life is just a dream. And I will have done all this without having to blindly believe anything, without having blind faith in religious leaders, by doing what the Buddha himself said which is to use my own reasoning and common sense, and to seek the answers for myself. What will you look back on when you die?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:36 am 
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Post duplicated itself in late edit; sorry!

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Last edited by undefineable on Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:37 am 
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Koji wrote:
It shouldn't be that surprising to be reborn again especially after we've been born once already and are clueless as to why, exactly.
:good:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:40 am 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
i can not say anything about buddha having to take rebirth, i think in heart sutra it is said that there is no end to birth and death, and that there is no birth and death _ _ but that buddha doesnt take rebirth at all i think heart sutra goes against that by saying there is no end to end death and birth.
This time it really is just :shrug: :thinking:

:tongue:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:44 am 
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Thread unlocked.

if users would like to discuss race in a way that is sensible, informed by verifiable fact, and not disruptive, please do so in a different topic (feel free to start one if you like). This thread is about Buddhist views on the afterlife and their viability. Enjoy.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:28 pm 
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gandy wrote:
b. if you are right I will be forced by the universe to reincarnate as many times until I will be forced to realize your stuff on my own


Forced by the universe?
I have never heard of such a thing in Buddhism.
Perhaps you are thinking of Star Wars.

There is a commonly held notion (popularized, I think by New-Age ramblings) that karma is some kind of force in the universe that metes out absolute punishments and rewards according to the relative actions of individuals.

If this is your understanding of that term, it is mistaken.
.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
There is a commonly held notion (popularized, I think by New-Age ramblings) that karma is some kind of force in the universe that metes out absolute punishments and rewards according to the relative actions of individuals.

If this is your understanding of that term, it is mistaken.

Ok, so what then is your understanding?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:10 am 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:
That imagined self is not what experiences liberation.
liberation occurs when the self ceases to be imagined.


Thanks very much for your posts in this thread. :twothumbsup:
Always good to read the Buddhist position from the perspective of wisdom. Staying imagination free, whilst in the realm of unknowing and imagined self is a continuous rebirth - cyclic and running on emptying . . .
:smile:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:27 am 
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smcj wrote:
Quote:
There is a commonly held notion (popularized, I think by New-Age ramblings) that karma is some kind of force in the universe that metes out absolute punishments and rewards according to the relative actions of individuals.

If this is your understanding of that term, it is mistaken.

Ok, so what then is your understanding?


The short answer is that
karma is how the unenlightened mind experiences the interdependence of phenomena.
A buddha experiences the interdependence of phenomena without experiencing karma and rebirth.
Karma is a mental experience.
It is the experience of the actions, the experience of the cause of actions and the experience of the result of actions
of one's own body, speech and mind, somewhat deluded by clinging and attachment.

The universe doesn't care what you do.
Ethical concerns of good and bad are entirely constructs of the human imagination.
The positive or negative actions of your body, speech, and mind only bear fruit
because of, and to the degree that you grasp at appearances as inherently existent.

It is one's own mind that produces, and experiences rebirth under various circumstances.
So, when it is said that a person who is greedy in this life will be reborn impoverished in the next
it doesn't mean they will be poor. They may be reborn in a wealthy, royal family
but in their mind, they will never be satisfied. They will never have enough.
That's because, in the mind, they have planted the seeds of dissatisfaction.
Always wanting more and more of everything, naturally one can never be satisfied
so, the karma of this is that the person will, in the future,
always feel as though they don't have enough,
even if in fact they do.
Or, a person might be reborn from this as a hungry ghost.
What does that mean? Hungry ghosts are always hungry and thirsty
They are so messed up, that even if you give them water and food,
they perceive it as vile pus and filth.
Are they real?
Real as compared to what...compared to us?
Are we real compared to us?
Whether hungry ghost really exist is not the point.
Believing in them or not is of little consequence.
This is a description of a state of mind. even if it is delusional on the part of those who experience it,
it is still as real an experience as our own human realm.
Conversely, if you are generous, you feel rich even if you own very little.
But what causes this isn't some grand scale of judgement in the cosmos.
It's all within one's own mind.


The other realms are no more real than this one
but look at how real this one seems.
As a result, our experience of karma seems just as real.
.
.
.

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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
.. that yogis could float and fly... Image

and levitate ... :spy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnLj8DMqaC8


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Thrasymachus wrote:
There is no proof for karma theory, so just let it go.

Not sure whether this means that you don't believe in what the Buddha taught about karma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:32 pm 
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What I find strange is that people have no problem accepting that dust can form into stars and that stars can form into planets, dogs, and people, yet somehow rebirth is so crazy that it must be wrong. Everything on this earth now was once something else on this earth, and before that it was something floating out into space. Clouds rise from the sea and return to the sea. Plants eat the sun and turn into animals. According to modern science, even the very atoms that compose our body change every 7 years, moving on to other things. However, if some one dares to suggest that we people are subject to similar transformation, it is crazy.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:53 pm 
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I have a genuine question which I'm interested in hearing other peoples ideas and answers;

In the Sutras, Nirvana is described as a birthless/deathless beyond the realm of samsara of birth and death. I understand the 'moment-to-moment' idea of rebirth and that Nirvana, in this instance, is to be free from the changing clinging ego and is born and dies from 'moment-to-moment'. My question is though, with the above idea of rebirth, wouldn't death bring about 'Nirvana' (ie being free from the birth and death of the 'I' in moment-to-moment)?

Gassho,
Seishin

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Seishin wrote:
I have a genuine question which I'm interested in hearing other peoples ideas and answers;

In the Sutras, Nirvana is described as a birthless/deathless beyond the realm of samsara of birth and death. I understand the 'moment-to-moment' idea of rebirth and that Nirvana, in this instance, is to be free from the changing clinging ego and is born and dies from 'moment-to-moment'. My question is though, with the above idea of rebirth, wouldn't death bring about 'Nirvana' (ie being free from the birth and death of the 'I' in moment-to-moment)?

Gassho,
Seishin


I've been taught that what is reborn is precisely all that samsaric ego stuff of clinging, identification, knots of afflictive emotion, &c: karma that has not been exhausted or transformed. The skandhas come apart but this little wad of despair persists until it doesn't persist anymore, life after life.

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:43 pm 
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i could agree with this jikan since after being unconscious in the death process and we come to bardo, we have the same mental body that countains everything while we were alive.

_________________
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
Seishin wrote:
I have a genuine question which I'm interested in hearing other peoples ideas and answers;

In the Sutras, Nirvana is described as a birthless/deathless beyond the realm of samsara of birth and death. I understand the 'moment-to-moment' idea of rebirth and that Nirvana, in this instance, is to be free from the changing clinging ego and is born and dies from 'moment-to-moment'. My question is though, with the above idea of rebirth, wouldn't death bring about 'Nirvana' (ie being free from the birth and death of the 'I' in moment-to-moment)?

Gassho,
Seishin


I've been taught that what is reborn is precisely all that samsaric ego stuff of clinging, identification, knots of afflictive emotion, &c: karma that has not been exhausted or transformed. The skandhas come apart but this little wad of despair persists until it doesn't persist anymore, life after life.

Thoughts?


Probably no surprise, but this is how I've been taught also.

What I'm struggling with is if there is no post-mortem rebirth, and nirvana is being free from moment-to-moment rebirth, isn't death equivalent to nirvana in this instance?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Seishin wrote:
... Isn't death equivalent to nirvana in this instance?


No. Because death is only a state of the body. It doesn't affect the energy.
Like when water is boiled, it doesn't vanish, it only changes its aggregate-shape.
So the energy (karma) is not gone, it just changes its shape.
Otherwise all the suicides would be in nirvana. :tongue:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:04 pm 
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No no, I completely understand and agree with that. I am asking those who disbelieve in post-mortem rebirth. :smile:

Gassho,
Seishin

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