Anonymity and Trolling

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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:11 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Instead of dealing Greg/Dorje's hypothetical example...

Ah, Sherab Dorje is Gregkarvanaros (spelling is probably wrong). That's kind of a relief, I was getting concerned that someone who I've never corresponded with had something against me.

Almost every forum I have been on, I have felt I have been trolled by the staff and moderators.

I wouldn't call that trolling, because if I read you right they would be doing it strategically, and not just for shits and giggles. Tactical provocation for a specific purpose other than self amusement is not trolling. It's still deliberately causing disruption however, and compromising the integrity of the forum. It would be accurate to describe them as corrupt.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:46 am

this is the kind of thing you would much rather be discussing than Buddhism as such.

Hence the thread.

Don't worry, I won't bother you further.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:10 am

Jeepers raises an interesting question. How would someone who is practicing the Eightfold Path deal with a troll?
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:27 am

shel wrote:Jeepers raises an interesting question. How would someone who is practicing the Eightfold Path deal with a troll?



take them at face value until their behavior is clearly disruptive and unproductive..ask them to start being more productive and to discuss in good faith, if not, leave the conversation, ask them to leave it (if a moderator etc.). All subjective obviously, but that's all we got.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Simon E. » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:35 am

jeeprs wrote:this is the kind of thing you would much rather be discussing than Buddhism as such.

Hence the thread.

Don't worry, I won't bother you further.



This.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:59 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
shel wrote:Jeepers raises an interesting question. How would someone who is practicing the Eightfold Path deal with a troll?



take them at face value until their behavior is clearly disruptive and unproductive..ask them to start being more productive and to discuss in good faith, if not, leave the conversation, ask them to leave it (if a moderator etc.). All subjective obviously, but that's all we got.

So nothing out of the ordinary.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby oushi » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:39 am

shel wrote:How would someone who is practicing the Eightfold Path deal with a troll?

If I remember correctly, Buddha himself discourage people from taking part in discussions. So, from Dharma perspective, the problem of a troll does not arise.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:45 pm

The most specific part of the Nobel Eightfold Path that may apply here is Right Speech, I suppose.

    Don't lie - "He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world..."

    Don't create discord - "What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here...Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord..."

    Don't be abusive - "He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large..."

    Don't waste words - "He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal..."

The part about discord is significant to this discussion I think. "Reconciling those who have broken apart." Surely a troll is one who's "broken apart." So how can anyone who claims to be a Buddhist not seek reconciliation? This is a basic tenet. Pushing them away or insulating yourself from a troll is defiantly not reconciliation. It's basically admitting to not possessing the wisdom to deal with them.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:52 pm

shel wrote:The most specific part of the Nobel Eightfold Path that may apply here is Right Speech, I suppose.

    Don't lie - "He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world..."

    Don't create discord - "What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here...Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord..."

    Don't be abusive - "He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large..."

    Don't waste words - "He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal..."

The part about discord is significant to this discussion I think. "Reconciling those who have broken apart." Surely a troll is one who's "broken apart." So how can anyone who claims to be a Buddhist not seek reconciliation? This is a basic tenet. Pushing them away or insulating yourself from a troll is defiantly not reconciliation. It's basically admitting to not possessing the wisdom to deal with them.


Great post. I remember being shocked the very first time I joined an online Buddhist discussion on YahooGroups many years ago. I was brand new to the whole thing and just a curious noob with utterly good intentions. Within 1 or 2 posts, I had been "shot down" in some way. I remember saying something typical like "that's not very buddhist of you" and the whole thing went downhill from there. I left and checked out a few more places only to be smacked in the face with that exact same sort of rudeness. It caused me to think these people are obviously hypocrites just like my christian family and I started looking for something non-hypocritical. I ended up studying Aleister Crowley for several years as a result! :rolling:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Koji » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:16 pm

Trolling? No problem. I am more worried about "trawling" which involves throwing out interesting subjects (like a trawling net) for discussion, hoping to catch some interest. I think forums should be intellectually dull - no trawling allowed. I mean who wants to think and get excited about some subject, even managing a robust debate? :tongue:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:04 pm

padma norbu wrote:... It caused me to think these people are obviously hypocrites just like my christian family and I started looking for something non-hypocritical. I ended up studying Aleister Crowley for several years as a result! :rolling:


Lol, I first learned of Mr. Crowley via an Ozzy Osbourne song of the same name. "The wickedest man in the world" (Crowley, not Osbourne... but that may be debatable) :tongue:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 pm

shel wrote:
padma norbu wrote:... It caused me to think these people are obviously hypocrites just like my christian family and I started looking for something non-hypocritical. I ended up studying Aleister Crowley for several years as a result! :rolling:


Lol, I first learned of Mr. Crowley via an Ozzy Osbourne song of the same name. "The wickedest man in the world" (Crowley, not Osbourne... but that may be debatable) :tongue:


Off-topic, but utterly debatable, imo. I think he had faults, mainly due to a restrictive Christian upbringing, homosexual tendencies in the Victorian era and a doctor-prescribed heroin addiction for asthma that didn't help him any, but ultimately I truly believe he was a more dedicated and compassionate man than most people in the history of the world.

I don't want to get into specifics because I'm not here to sell anyone on him, but I am already anticipating a variety of possible responses to my above statement, so I just want to acknowledge here that whatever you Google up about Crowley is most likely a misconstrued distortion or a flat-out lie. He was not a Satanist, he did not sacrifice children, he did not help the Nazis and he never killed a man or advocated rape. Though he occasionally said some crude things about sex and race, he was an absolute saint in these regards for the time period. When racism and misogyny was the norm, he was adamantly challenging this status quo thinking and arguing for the equal rights of all mankind. That's part of the reason he was so disturbing to people of the time period, who actually found justification in these beliefs in their (right or wrong) Christian faith as taught to them by whomever. Christian attitudes have changed over the years in part thanks to Crowley's efforts. His influence has been incredible and his predictions for a future sexual revolution and human rights movement beginning in approximately 1965 absolutely accurate. In fact, many of the hippy leaders were fans of Aleister Crowley, like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, Timothy Leary, William Burroughs, Robert Anton Wilson and too many more to list. It is obvious Crowley's influence spearheaded all of our modern liberal attitudes. The amount of effort and money (his own) he put into trying to change views across the world is absolutely astonishing. Christians see this as evidence for his satanic agenda; more level-headed people see how dedicated he was to liberating people and how deeply committed he was to justice and righting wrongs.

I find it somewhat disconcerting that all these years later, people still refer to him as though he is the spawn of Satan. It is comical how many satanic heavy metal bands refer to him and his religion, Thelema, as if it is the ultimate in black evil, when he in fact stated several times in his own secret texts to his insider followers as well as all his publicly published writings that black magic, selfishness and evil were all incredibly stupid, terrible and naive aspirations for anyone and would only result in one's own downfall.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:08 am

You say Crowley actively worked to changed views? They'd call that trolling in some circles. :tongue: Trolls are of course evil to the core.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:49 am

shel wrote:You say Crowley actively worked to changed views? They'd call that trolling in some circles. :tongue: Trolls are of course evil to the core.

Like I said, it's one of the reasons he was vilified. Something funny, though, in relation to "trolling" is he published under over a hundred different pseudonyms, I think. The original anonymous troll and sockpuppet, perhaps? I'm pretty sure if I recall correctly that he actually wrote opposing viewpoint editorials using two different fake names so he had the issue covered from all sides. :)
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Kim O'Hara » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:23 pm

padma norbu wrote:
shel wrote:You say Crowley actively worked to changed views? They'd call that trolling in some circles. :tongue: Trolls are of course evil to the core.

Like I said, it's one of the reasons he was vilified. Something funny, though, in relation to "trolling" is he published under over a hundred different pseudonyms, I think. The original anonymous troll and sockpuppet, perhaps? I'm pretty sure if I recall correctly that he actually wrote opposing viewpoint editorials using two different fake names so he had the issue covered from all sides. :)

It's also a good way of whipping up controversy ... which is why members are not permitted to have multiple identities here.

:namaste:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:21 pm

Simon E. wrote:
jeeprs wrote:this is the kind of thing you would much rather be discussing than Buddhism as such.

Hence the thread.

Don't worry, I won't bother you further.


This.

I've read this several times but can't quite decipher what this is supposed to mean. I don't understand why Jeepers assumes anyone would "much rather" be discussing these issues than Buddhism, or anything else for that matter. I don't understand why it's bad to have a preference for discussing these issues over Buddhism, or even why it would be bad to have a great deal more interest in discussing these issues. It's not like anyone would always have this preference.

The inspiration for this topic originated at Zen Forum International. There's a topic with the same name and subject on that forum. By comparison, that discussion has involved the whole community there, and has had several times the activity of the discussion on this forum. Only a small handful of members here have shown any interest. Amusingly, several posts have been deleted by moderators for violating the terms of service on that forum, and those posts were written by non-anonymous members of that forum. Too funny.

It's also odd that Jeepers writes "Buddhism as such" or Buddhism itself.

And then there's the illogical conclusion "hence the thread," which I assume no one will attempt making appear rational.

Finally he asks us not to worry, strangely, and that he won't bother us. I'm quite sure no one is worried. As far as being bothered, posts like this are curious but are no bother really.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby justsit » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:52 pm

shel wrote:The inspiration for this topic originated at Zen Forum International. There's a topic with the same name and subject on that forum. By comparison, that discussion has involved the whole community there, and has had several times the activity of the discussion on this forum. Only a small handful of members here have shown any interest.


Guess we're all too busy practicing? :smile:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:21 pm

They should try that on the other forum. <-- troll :tongue:
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby Jikan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:30 am

shel wrote:I've read this several times but can't quite decipher what this is supposed to mean. I don't understand why Jeepers assumes anyone would "much rather" be discussing these issues than Buddhism, or anything else for that matter. I don't understand why it's bad to have a preference for discussing these issues over Buddhism, or even why it would be bad to have a great deal more interest in discussing these issues. It's not like anyone would always have this preference.

The inspiration for this topic originated at Zen Forum International. There's a topic with the same name and subject on that forum. By comparison, that discussion has involved the whole community there, and has had several times the activity of the discussion on this forum. Only a small handful of members here have shown any interest. Amusingly, several posts have been deleted by moderators for violating the terms of service on that forum, and those posts were written by non-anonymous members of that forum. Too funny.

It's also odd that Jeepers writes "Buddhism as such" or Buddhism itself.

And then there's the illogical conclusion "hence the thread," which I assume no one will attempt making appear rational.

Finally he asks us not to worry, strangely, and that he won't bother us. I'm quite sure no one is worried. As far as being bothered, posts like this are curious but are no bother really.


I will attempt to paraphrase this comment by jeeprs & approved by Simon E. It is pithy and not at all illogical.

Simon E. wrote:
jeeprs wrote:this is the kind of thing you would much rather be discussing than Buddhism as such.

Hence the thread.

Don't worry, I won't bother you further.


This.


jeeprs is saying that you seem more interested in discussing trolling on internet discussion boards inclusive of boards that discuss Buddhism, rather than discussing Buddhism. (that's what I take to jeeprs to mean by "Buddhism as such," as distinct from meta-commentary on trolling &c). That's the first line.

"Hence the thread" means that this thread reflects your interest in such meta-commentary. In this context, this comment is wholly logical. It follows directly from the first premise.

"I won't bother you further" means jeeprs wishes to express a disinterest in such discussion, implying instead that he or she would prefer to discuss Buddhism than this topic that seems to interest you (and as later posts suggest, also interests our friends at ZFI... good for them I suppose.)

Simon E's comment "This." simply means that he or she agrees entirely with jeepr's assessment of your contributions to the board as reflected by this thread.

I haven't seen anything so far in this thread to dissuade me from the view that jeeprs & Simon E are on the right track here.
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Re: Anonymity and Trolling

Postby shel » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:22 am

Jikan wrote:It [Jeepers post] is pithy and not at all illogical.

I think it could only be interpreted as pithy by those who agree with the assumptions and implied value judgement. It's not possible for Jeepers to know that anyone, except for maybe himself, would prefer discussing this topic a great deal more than Buddhism itself.

jeeprs is saying that you seem more interested in discussing trolling on internet discussion boards inclusive of boards that discuss Buddhism, rather than discussing Buddhism. (that's what I take to jeeprs to mean by "Buddhism as such," as distinct from meta-commentary on trolling &c). That's the first line.

He did not say "seem" but said it as though stating a fact.

I suppose he may have used the phrase "Buddhism as such" to frame the discussion as a meta-commentary of Buddhist discussions, but it's not a meta-commentary of Buddhist discussions or forums. It's simply a discussion about online trolling, primarily.

"Hence the thread" means that this thread reflects your interest in such meta-commentary. In this context, this comment is wholly logical. It follows directly from the first premise.

Again, Jeepers could not possibly know what my preferences are. I might prefer to discuss Buddhism, or I might have only a marginal preference for this topic at any time.

I believe the intended implication is that there's no actual interest in Buddhism ("would much rather be discussing" other things like trolling), which is an essential characteristic of trolling, having no real interest in a subject of discussion.

And you think that's pithy?

"I won't bother you further" means jeeprs wishes to express a disinterest in such discussion, implying instead that he or she would prefer to discuss Buddhism...

He did not express disinterest. He claimed that a great deal of interest in topics like this, which are not specifically related to Buddhism, leads to topics like this. The topic has interested him, obviously, but if he were to participate further he would himself fall under the pithy implication mentioned above. Couldn't have that.

I haven't seen anything so far in this thread to dissuade me from the view that jeeprs & Simon E are on the right track here.

Well it is in the lounge section of the forum. That might suggest the degree of Buddhist piety intended.
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