Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Anything goes (almost).

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:39 am

Indrajala wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:...he says that the Dharma is only available due to the kindness of Tibetans.


That's an ignorant remark.

Tibetans were never and are not the sole caretakers of Dharma in the world.


Khenpo's statement "The Dharma is only available due to the kindness of Tibetans." is only speaking of his own region at the time.
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:47 am

Indrajala wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:...he says that the Dharma is only available due to the kindness of Tibetans.


That's an ignorant remark.

Tibetans were never and are not the sole caretakers of Dharma in the world.
I don't have the book in front of me, but I took his remark to mean "is only available to the Tibetan Plateau region due to the kindness of Tibetans". Sorry for writing in a confusing way.

EDIT

Indrajala wrote:I think in the general Chinese political paradigm, apologizing is perceived as a sign of weakness and incompetence. If you can make the enemy apologize, then you strengthen your own position both at home and abroad.

On the other hand, if you refuse to apologize to them, then you might actually gain their begrudging respect. This is why despite the PRC howling whenever Japanese politicians visit Yasukuni Shrine, it is actually in the interests of the Japanese to carry on doing so. Passive aggressive behaviour in East Asia is actually a way of indicating a strong position without having to beat war drums. On the other hand if you roll over and submit, you are clearly only worthy of contempt, and thus you deserve whatever fate you get.
A lot of things make more sense now.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby lobster » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:21 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:To wonder if Westerners will "have to facilitate the enactment of Dharma" suggests an imperialist superiority complex.


I think that is a fair comment.

From where we are, what will cause less suffering for all concerned? I would suggest dialogue and the removal of ignorance. In other words from whatever source, whatever its motive, complex or name - dharma.
User avatar
lobster
 
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:29 am

Indrajala wrote:This is why despite the PRC howling whenever Japanese politicians visit Yasukuni Shrine, it is actually in the interests of the Japanese to carry on doing so.


It is in the narrow interests of the Japanese to do so. But to be seen as barbarians by the entire world is not in their long term interest.

Passive aggressive behaviour in East Asia is actually a way of indicating a strong position without having to beat war drums.


It's actually just involvement in the eight wordily concerns (praise, blame, fame, insignificance , gain, loss, happiness, suffering). Better would be for the secure nations to generously help the less secure nations and elevate the happiness and prosperity of the region and world without aggression.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:34 am

Indrajala wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:...he says that the Dharma is only available due to the kindness of Tibetans.


That's an ignorant remark.

Tibetans were never and are not the sole caretakers of Dharma in the world.


Yes they were in fact the caretakers of Indian Vajrayana in the world. Their mostly accurate claim is that Tibet was the only place where the Sravaka, Mahayana and Vajrayana teachers were kept and practiced. There was the Vajrayana transmission from Indian to China but it's not clear if it survived without further infusion from Tibet or other regions and there was the transmission of the lower tantras to Japan but Tibet is the only place where the full transmission of Indian Buddhism was safeguarded.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:42 am

kirtu wrote:Yes they were in fact the caretakers of Indian Vajrayana in the world.


That's inaccurate. Shingon and Taimitsu are Mantrayāna. They have their own practices and texts which go right back to India. Tibetans might classify it as "yoga-tantra", but that's their perspective on the matter, not that of Shingon and Tendai.


Their mostly accurate claim is that Tibet was the only place where the Sravaka, Mahayana and Vajrayana teachers were kept and practiced.


That's also inaccurate. Japan and China had all said teachings plus a lot more than Tibet with respect to early Abhidharma and Vinaya literature.

The Tibetans do not have the same amount of material on Abhidharma and Vinaya as was preserved in Chinese. There are also plenty of other texts that are preserved only in Chinese translation.


... but Tibet is the only place where the full transmission of Indian Buddhism was safeguarded.


That's just a line of Tibetan propaganda and self-aggrandizement. It is their selling point and easily refuted.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:52 am

kirtu wrote:It is in the narrow interests of the Japanese to do so. But to be seen as barbarians by the entire world is not in their long term interest.


Yasukuni is actually a lovely shrine. I've visited it before. The museum there is also highly educational. If you ever have the chance, please visit.

Yasukuni for the Japanese people generally represents a shrine to the fallen war dead who fought for an ideal of defending their nation against foreign aggression (if you lived between 1875 and 1945 in Japan, European colonialism would have been a big fear). Naturally, the other side from the war condemns the war criminals as pure aggressors and militarists, and maybe some of them were, but the victors got to write the official history books which are full of skewed ideas from wartime propaganda.

I don't defend what the Japanese military establishment did, but we need to be mindful of the fact that a lot of military men unfortunately died in pursuit of an ideal that they thought was virtuous. We might disagree, but the Japanese have a right to have a place of remembrance for their war dead.


It's actually just involvement in the eight wordily concerns (praise, blame, fame, insignificance , gain, loss, happiness, suffering). Better would be for the secure nations to generously help the less secure nations and elevate the happiness and prosperity of the region and world without aggression.


Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby yegyal » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:50 pm

Indrajala wrote:
kirtu wrote:Yes they were in fact the caretakers of Indian Vajrayana in the world.


That's inaccurate. Shingon and Taimitsu are Mantrayāna. They have their own practices and texts which go right back to India. Tibetans might classify it as "yoga-tantra", but that's their perspective on the matter, not that of Shingon and Tendai.




Yes, but these schools came to Japan in the 8th century, while Indian tantra continued to evolve for almost another 500 years afterwards, and much of these later developments were preserved only in Tibet. You're obviously not a big fan of the Tibetan tradition, but that's no reason to deny them the credit they are due.
yegyal
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:02 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:01 pm

yegyal wrote:Yes, but these schools came to Japan in the 8th century, while Indian tantra continued to evolve for almost another 500 years afterwards, and much of these later developments were preserved only in Tibet. You're obviously not a big fan of the Tibetan tradition, but that's no reason to deny them the credit they are due.


As far as the masters of Shingon were concerned in China and Japan, they had a fully developed and mature system to buddhahood. They did not classify what they had specifically as yoga-tantra in contrast to an annutara-yoga-tantra.

Now while the Tibetans did inherit annutara-yoga-tantra, it is largely just they themselves who believe this places them in a superior position to Shingon practitioners who have an "incomplete transmission". It is part of the Tibetan Buddhist identity to denigrate Buddhist developments in other countries as incomplete and inferior to the supposedly pure and complete transmission of Indian Buddhism that the Tibetans received.

No, it doesn't work like that. The Tibetans lack a big chunk of Abhidharma, Vinaya and earlier Āgamma works. Of course according to traditional Tibetan doxographies this is of little consequence since such teachings are denigrated as lesser Hīnayāna teachings which are of little use to someone practising tantra with buddhahood in a single lifetime in mind.

Basically the idea that the Tibetans have a complete transmission of Indian Buddhism is fallacious and easily refuted. It was even the policy of early Tibetan state-sponsored translation projects to NOT translate Hīnayāna works. Consequently, their transmission of Buddhism is lacking. The Chinese canon is by no means complete either. Some Chinese Buddhists like to think of themselves as the more legitimate heirs to Mahāyāna culture, which of course is also nonsense.

Don't believe everything you hear.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Indrajala » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:14 pm

yegyal wrote:You're obviously not a big fan of the Tibetan tradition, but that's no reason to deny them the credit they are due.


I think Tibetan Buddhism is great and have learnt much from it. I have a Gelug-pa teacher, too.

I just don't accept the propaganda common in Tibetan Buddhism and the pro-Tibet lobby.

I'm highly critical of every Buddhist tradition I associate with. I know it offends people at times, but honest and reasoned analysis is actually better than silence.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:08 pm

Indrajala wrote:
kirtu wrote:Yes they were in fact the caretakers of Indian Vajrayana in the world.


That's inaccurate. Shingon and Taimitsu are Mantrayāna. They have their own practices and texts which go right back to India. Tibetans might classify it as "yoga-tantra", but that's their perspective on the matter, not that of Shingon and Tendai.


I was apparently not clear enough. Highest yoga tantra is absent in Tendai and I'm pretty sure in Shingon as highest yoga tantra was a later development from India and developed after the transmission from India to China.

There is a significant difference between yoga tanta and highest yoga tanta. This was the final development of tantra and is missing outside of Himalayan/Mongolian Buddhism (although not entirely missing in Chinese Vajrayana because of later teaching).


Their mostly accurate claim is that Tibet was the only place where the Sravaka, Mahayana and Vajrayana teachers were kept and practiced.


That's also inaccurate. Japan and China had all said teachings plus a lot more than Tibet with respect to early Abhidharma and Vinaya literature.


China does have a different focus wrt early Abhidharma and Vinaya. Nontheless the claim is correct that Tibetan Buddhism is the only form of Buddhism that has preserved all three yanas with full tantra/mantrayana.


... but Tibet is the only place where the full transmission of Indian Buddhism was safeguarded.


That's just a line of Tibetan propaganda and self-aggrandizement. It is their selling point and easily refuted.


You have a source for highest yoga tantra in Japan or somewhere other than Himalayan/Mongolian Buddhism?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:18 pm

And the Yoga tantras are missing from Tibet, no? How much practice is there of Performance Tantra?

AFAIK, Yoga Tantra is available in Japan.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:34 pm

JKhedrup wrote:And the Yoga tantras are missing from Tibet, no? How much practice is there of Performance Tantra?

AFAIK, Yoga Tantra is available in Japan.



Sarvavidyā [From the Sarvadurgatiparishodana] practiced widely in Kagyu, Sakya and Gelugpa is Yogatantra.

Practices such as Tara, Medicine Buddha and so forth where the wisdom being is dismissed is Carya Tantra.

What is not practiced much in Tibetan Buddhism is kriya tantra. But all the initiations for Kriya, Carya and Yoga Tantra still exist and are transmitted in every generation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11726
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:52 pm

Thanks Malcolm. I have heard Sarvavidya mentioned during teachings on Tantric Grounds and Paths, but have never heard of an initiation being given into it.

It is interesting what you say about the Tara and Medicine Buddha practices- most of the initiations rituals I have translated for Geshes describe the practices as Kriya Tantra.
Would this be because they are Jenangs/subsequent permissions rather than dbangs?

I have only translated one 2 day wang/ full initiation into Chenrezig, and it was still described as Kriya Tantra. So now I am totally confused, though I am not dismissing at all what you said, just unsure of what it means on the ground!
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:17 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Thanks Malcolm. I have heard Sarvavidya mentioned during teachings on Tantric Grounds and Paths, but have never heard of an initiation being given into it.

It is interesting what you say about the Tara and Medicine Buddha practices- most of the initiations rituals I have translated for Geshes describe the practices as Kriya Tantra.
Would this be because they are Jenangs/subsequent permissions rather than dbangs?

I have only translated one 2 day wang/ full initiation into Chenrezig, and it was still described as Kriya Tantra. So now I am totally confused, though I am not dismissing at all what you said, just unsure of what it means on the ground!


There are many elaborate abhishekas in Kriya tantra.

Medicine Buddha, Tara and so on come from Kriya but they are general practiced according to Yoga Tantra view, that makes them automatically Carya. There are specifically Carya level tantras like the Vairocana-abhisambodhi, etc.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11726
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:22 pm

Thanks Malcolm, it is very interesting. It seems at the very least that these 4 categories of Tantra are somewhat fluid in some respects.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:25 pm

JKhedrup wrote:Thanks Malcolm, it is very interesting. It seems at the very least that these 4 categories of Tantra are somewhat fluid in some respects.



Yes, for example, Manjushri Namasamghiti can be commented upon as a Yoga tantra text, but also as an Anuttarayoga tantra text, or even as a Dzogchen text.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11726
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:05 pm

JKhedrup wrote:And the Yoga tantras are missing from Tibet, no? How much practice is there of Performance Tantra?

AFAIK, Yoga Tantra is available in Japan.
I think there is one Yoga practice. And I've heard of two Charya practices, a Vajrapani one and a Vairocana one (the same one practiced in Japan I think). Nyungne is also sometimes considered a Charya practice.

There may be more, but Kriya and HYT are the main focuses of Tibetan Buddhism.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:18 pm

Indrajala wrote:
kirtu wrote:It is in the narrow interests of the Japanese to do so. But to be seen as barbarians by the entire world is not in their long term interest.


Yasukuni is actually a lovely shrine. I've visited it before. The museum there is also highly educational. If you ever have the chance, please visit. .... I don't defend what the Japanese military establishment did, but we need to be mindful of the fact that a lot of military men unfortunately died in pursuit of an ideal that they thought was virtuous. We might disagree, but the Japanese have a right to have a place of remembrance for their war dead.


Yes they do. They also need to face the fact that they initiated and pursued aggressive war and they have war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni. So they need to apologize for WW II and deal with the war criminal issue. It's just like the other major aggressor having not repudiated WW II and enshrined their war criminals.

Yasukuni for the Japanese people generally represents a shrine to the fallen war dead who fought for an ideal of defending their nation against foreign aggression (if you lived between 1875 and 1945 in Japan, European colonialism would have been a big fear).


European colonialism did not cause the Japanese to wage aggressive war against China, rape Nanjing, commit numerous, unprecedented, war crimes, create concentration camp situations similar to Nazi Germany, wage war against defenseless populations, violate the rules of war and so forth.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:22 pm

Indrajala wrote:
yegyal wrote:Yes, but these schools came to Japan in the 8th century, while Indian tantra continued to evolve for almost another 500 years afterwards, and much of these later developments were preserved only in Tibet. You're obviously not a big fan of the Tibetan tradition, but that's no reason to deny them the credit they are due.


As far as the masters of Shingon were concerned in China and Japan, they had a fully developed and mature system to buddhahood.


Yes they do. Is that claim valid though? In terms of their school it is. However Shingon really is secret as opposed to TB which is pretty open comparatively. Shingon secrecy makes it impossible to investigate the claim.

Note that Zen would also say that one could attain enlightenment in one lifetime.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4367
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

PreviousNext

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LastLegend and 9 guests

>