Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby uan » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:55 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
Thanks I think I´ll pass on Mr and Mrs Trimondi´s `objective` opinions.


I didn't say they had "objective" opinions (and opinions, by definition aren't "objective"). I said they had opinions different from yours. Nor did I say someone had to accept them. I also don't know anything about them except that one excerpt I posted, and that was found as I was doing a quick google search to find more on what the DL had said with the BBC. I had previously read stuff from HHDL about that time in the 50s in Tibet and his interactions with the Chinese and Mao-iirc even in his own biography/autobiography (not being a walking encyclopedia, I don't have all this at the tip of my fingers).

What they mentioned in the link was actually not totally at odds with some of what HHDL has said. In addition, Mao is a much more complex person than folks give him credit for. He wasn't a godless, communist technocrat. There certainly was a spiritual aspect to Mao (he read sutras, etc growing up as a child), both as a person and in the cult of personality that was developed around him. He also was incredibly cultured and educated. The excerpt was actually an interesting read from the standpoint of looking at Mao in a broader sense. (btw, some of their info comes from a book written by Mao's doctor and I can assure you, while I don't know how accurate it is, the book was/is not welcomed or endorsed by the Chinese Communist Party).

As for their statements - so? What's there to be afraid of? As I was mentioning, it's a different way of viewing the world. On a much smaller scale, we've seen this play out on this thread and many other threads on DW (and forums in general). We so often find comfort in seeing the world through our own experiences and ideas and hold tight to them. It's all ego-grasping.
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:59 am

anjali wrote:
kirtu wrote:
anjali wrote:Hmm. Willingly, or under duress (more like the French in Nazi occupied France during WWII)?


At least in some cases willingly. See "Surviving the Dragon" by Ajira Rinpoche.

Kirt


Thanks for the pointer. Surviving the Dragon looks interesting.


It is a very interesting book. The name is, however, Arjia Rinpoche.

from Chapter 6 Enter the Cultural Revolution, about the destruction of sutras and some statues in Kumbum monastery:
One cloudy autumn day, while we were harvesting green peas in the field, we heard a voice come over the loudspeaker demanding that we attend a meeting. We sensed that something terrible was about to happen. When we arrived at the courtyard, we saw that a crowd had gathered, including hundreds of college students; where they had come from, we did not know. They began a political study session, but the meeting was chaotic, and they began to argue among themselves. Suddenly, several college students started fighting at the front gate of the Great Hall of Golden Tiles. They looked crazed. From their shouting I realized that some wanted to destroy everything in the hall, but a woman student wearing a Red Guard armband opposed them, advocating protection of the ancient objects. Unfortunately, she had few supporters. When the majority of the Red Guards moved to enter the hall, the gatekeeper, a monk named Tsering, locked the gate. Some Red Guards went to the leader of the government work team stationed in the monastery, who ordered Tsering to open the gate. Tsering had no choice but to surrender the key. The Red Guards swarmed into Maitreya Hall next door and began to toss bundles of ancient sutras into the courtyard from the second floor of the Buddha Hall. They lit a fire, and soon the monastery was filled with the thick smoke of burning books. Some monks lost control and began to wail. Others stood motionless. Still others joined in the destruction of the sutras, spurring on the students. Panic and rage were everywhere, like demons unleashed. I watched in helpless horror as the Red Guards burned the sutras in Gyayak Rinpoche’s personal shrine. After a few hours, a cadre halted the Red Guard’s atrocities because he suspected they were stealing valuable works of art. Many students left, disappointed that their plan for total destruction had failed. After this incident, monk positivists and Red Guards destroyed many more statues and sutras on their own. According to Chinese history, the first emperor of China burned books and killed scholars more than 2,000 years ago. It was considered his great achievement. True to this ignoble tradition, burning sutras and smashing Buddhas were great achievements of the Cultural Revolution in Tibet.


The term positivist monks refers to monks doing the bidding of the PRC cadres and the Red Guards. There are many such stories.

From Chapter 9 The Sacred Tree and the Time Machine:
The original intent of the Chinese clampdown on monasteries was not necessarily to destroy them, but to reduce the power of religion as part of an attempt to gain absolute control over Tibet. However, destruction was often the result, especially of those monasteries in mountainous and fortified positions, many of which had been taken over by Tibetan freedom fighters and would be flattened by Chinese shelling and bombing. The renewed destruction of monasteries during the Cultural Revolution was conducted for different reasons, but was no less devastating. With the blessings of Chairman Mao, Red Guard units joined by fearful or traitorous Tibetans—monks and laypeople—ransacked the temples and ravaged the buildings, destroying in weeks knowledge and culture that had taken 11 centuries to evolve.
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby uan » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:29 am

kirtu wrote:
from Chapter 6 Enter the Cultural Revolution, about the destruction of sutras and some statues in Kumbum monastery:

... Gyayak Rinpoche’s personal shrine.


Kirtu, do you have any information on Gyayak Rinpoche, beyond being the uncle of Arjia Rinpoche? Do you know who he is the incarnation of?

Thanks
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:42 am

uan wrote:
kirtu wrote:
from Chapter 6 Enter the Cultural Revolution, about the destruction of sutras and some statues in Kumbum monastery:

... Gyayak Rinpoche’s personal shrine.


Kirtu, do you have any information on Gyayak Rinpoche, beyond being the uncle of Arjia Rinpoche? Do you know who he is the incarnation of?


He was the tutor of the Panchen Lama and the reincarnation of the Fourth Gyayak Rinpoche. He was also definitely a siddha. However I don't know anything beyond that about the lineage except that it seems associated with Kumbum Monastery.

Kirt
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby uan » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:05 am

kirtu wrote:
uan wrote:
Kirtu, do you have any information on Gyayak Rinpoche, beyond being the uncle of Arjia Rinpoche? Do you know who he is the incarnation of?


He was the tutor of the Panchen Lama and the reincarnation of the Fourth Gyayak Rinpoche. He was also definitely a siddha. However I don't know anything beyond that about the lineage except that it seems associated with Kumbum Monastery.

Kirt


thanks. I imagine he's passed away? (if he was the tutor of the 10th PL that would seem likely).
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby kirtu » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:14 am

uan wrote:
kirtu wrote:
uan wrote:
Kirtu, do you have any information on Gyayak Rinpoche, beyond being the uncle of Arjia Rinpoche? Do you know who he is the incarnation of?


He was the tutor of the Panchen Lama and the reincarnation of the Fourth Gyayak Rinpoche. He was also definitely a siddha. However I don't know anything beyond that about the lineage except that it seems associated with Kumbum Monastery.

Kirt


thanks. I imagine he's passed away? (if he was the tutor of the 10th PL that would seem likely).


He died in 1990. This is described in the book in fact and becomes part of the issue with the search for the 11th Panchen Lama.

Gyayak (perhaps rGya yag in Wylie) Rinpoche actually studied with the 9th Panchen Lama when he visited Kumbum Monastery shortly before passing away. Gyayak Rinpoche was an abbot there at the time.

There is a Gyayak Monastery mentioned in the Hidden Life of the 6th Dalai Lama which should be near Inner Mongolia. Arjia Rinpoche's family are considered Mongolian but this isn't mentioned in conjunction with Gyayak Rinpoche.

Kirt
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby uan » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:55 am

kirtu wrote:
He died in 1990. This is described in the book in fact and becomes part of the issue with the search for the 11th Panchen Lama.

Gyayak (perhaps rGya yag in Wylie) Rinpoche actually studied with the 9th Panchen Lama when he visited Kumbum Monastery shortly before passing away. Gyayak Rinpoche was an abbot there at the time.

There is a Gyayak Monastery mentioned in the Hidden Life of the 6th Dalai Lama which should be near Inner Mongolia. Arjia Rinpoche's family are considered Mongolian but this isn't mentioned in conjunction with Gyayak Rinpoche.

Kirt


I found extended excerpts of the book on Google books. I'll need to get a copy.
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:15 pm

Some educational posts on Tibetan History:


"Tibetan intransigence persuaded the British to give up their exploratory mission into Tibet. Instead Britain secured China’s recognition of its military takeover of Burma, and reciprocated by recognizing China’s claim of suzerainty over Tibet.

Tibetans were deliberately excluded from all the conventions and discussions that took place in those years between the British and China concerning Tibet or Sikkim. In 1893 when the Trade Regulation talks were held in Darjeeling, the Tibetan cabinet sent a senior official, Paljor Dorje Shatra to keep an eye on the proceedings. Shatra’s presence appears to have been resented by the British. Some English subalterns dragged him off his horse and threw him into a public fountain in the Chowrasta square."

http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2013/0 ... dalai-lama’s-proclamation-of-tibetan-independence


"Tibetans can legitimately view the events from 1876 to 1904 as the first chapter in their modern history. Most accounts of this period, largely written by British officials or scholars tend to downplay native resistance and patriotism and ascribe them instead to Tibetan religious fanaticism."

http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2013/0 ... dependence

"Academic scholarship may not generally lend itself to moving or inspirational writing, but there are exceptions. Edward Gibbon’s, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, is probably the greatest work of history written in the English language (Hugh Trevor-Roper) and a literary masterpiece praised for its narrative clarity, biting irony and elegant prose. It was a book that woke people up to a whole new way of viewing antiquity, especially in relation to the development of religious institutions – the Christian church in particular. It was also the defining work of history that came out of the European Enlightenment.

Tsepon Wangchuk Deden Shakabpa’s Advanced Political History of Tibet deals with events, places and personalities that have, of course, less resonance or significance to the rest of the world, especially at the moment when China is being hailed internationally as the next global superpower, and the issue of Tibet has been relegated to a kind of oblivion, more distant and inconsequential (it sometimes appears) than a chariot race at the Hippodrome in ancient Constantinople."

http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2011/1 ... n-history/
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
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Re: Government of Pre-PRC Tibet

Postby anjali » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:Some educational posts on Tibetan History:
...

Malcolm, that was some interesting reading. Thanks.
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  • All activities are like the games children play. If started, they can never be finished. They are only completed once you let them be, like castles made of sand. --Khenpo Nyoshul Rinpoche
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