Transgendered kids

Anything goes (almost).

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 7:28 am

gregkavarnos wrote:1. The Buddha said life is suffering. He didn't say "alternative" family structures are suffering and "traditional" family structures are joy.


Sure, but most people don't actually follow what the Buddha taught as the optimal lifestyle: give up family, sex, desires and go practice and die in a cave unknown to the world.

Still, in Mahāyāna we have ideas about positively benefiting beings while actively engaged in the world. In this respect, I think we can identify generally suitable social arrangements which make the best out of a bad situation, which I've attempted to outline above.


I feel that too much of it has to do with projection/generalising based on your past experience, it just doesn't work like that.


Oh, we can get down to the stats, too, about how single parent households produce more problematic kids and other such more objective bits of information.


I am getting the feeling that you are so hell bent on making your point that you are not listening to other peoples description of their experience (read suffering).


Funny I often get the sense liberal western Buddhist types are unwilling to listen to my views before calling me bigoted or some other such pejorative.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5914
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Dan74 » Thu May 30, 2013 7:33 am

In everything that you have written here, Ven Indrajala, I see no evidence that you have given the suffering of the people we speak about here any consideration. There is the usual Marxist consideration of the "masses", social forces, policies and constraints, and you say that "social stability often is paid for with a degree of injustice" kind of reminiscent of "the end justifies the means". There is a huge chunk of the picture missing in your worldview as you present it, and perhaps Greg's advice

Maybe take the time to listen to others expereince, it will help you understand them.


bears repeating.

Or perhaps not. But to decide one has to loosen the grip on views...
User avatar
Dan74
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 7:37 am

Dan74 wrote:In everything that you have written here, Ven Indrajala, I see no evidence that you have given the suffering of the people we speak about here any consideration. There is the usual Marxist consideration of the "masses", social forces, policies and constraints, and the "social stability often is paid for with a degree of injustice" - another form of "the end justifies the means".


Well, like I said, some Marxist ideas. Not all of it. Class struggle makes sense, but the idea of building a utopia free of injustice and inequality, not so much.

The issue really is quantitative. If we pursue policies that undermine stable social arrangements (or already disintegrating arrangements that used to work) for the benefit of a few, then we produce more suffering in the long-term than we remedy.

That would simply be inconsiderate of the greater well-being of all involved parties.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5914
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 7:43 am

You can't make samsara perfect, this is true. But to sacrifice some beings for "the greater good" is not in keeping with the Mahayana pledge to liberate ALL sentient beings.

You are investing too much hope in this idea of "traditional" as being some sort of panacea for society. "Traditional" changes from day to day. "Traditional" has also been, and will continue to be, a source of suffering. Welcome to samsara!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9514
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Zhen Li » Thu May 30, 2013 7:49 am

I think that one major reason why people from lower stations in life don't have social intelligence or know how which can allow them to engage in some sort of social mobility does come down to biologically distorted family conditions at home. Especially for males, without a father figure at home to identify with, who also is not an alcoholic and not abusive, they have little hope of getting on in the world in any mobile way. Then karma also plays a certain role too, self made people from poor backgrounds deprived of biologically mentally suitable parents and conditions can't be explained as successful by upbringing.

Traditions should not be attached to, but it should also be recognised that they contain within them some kernel of truth about what often works best. Things succeed for many generations when they have been shown to work for many generations. Time tests everything, and some things, like the communal households of the 1970s, don't stand up to the test of time.
Image
User avatar
Zhen Li
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 7:55 am

Ben Yuan wrote:I think that one major reason why people from lower stations in life don't have social intelligence or know how which can allow them to engage in some sort of social mobility does come down to biologically distorted family conditions at home. Especially for males, without a father figure at home to identify with, who also is not an alcoholic and not abusive, they have little hope of getting on in the world in any mobile way. Then karma also plays a certain role too, self made people from poor backgrounds deprived of biologically mentally suitable parents and conditions can't be explained as successful by upbringing.
All poor people are biologically mentally unsuitable and (financially) poor fathers are all alcoholic abusers? WTF are you talking about? :shrug:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9514
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Zhen Li » Thu May 30, 2013 8:16 am

gregkavarnos wrote:All poor people are biologically mentally unsuitable and (financially) poor fathers are all alcoholic abusers? WTF are you talking about? :shrug:

No, why would you think that?
Image
User avatar
Zhen Li
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 8:43 am

Ben Yuan wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:All poor people are biologically mentally unsuitable and (financially) poor fathers are all alcoholic abusers? WTF are you talking about? :shrug:

No, why would you think that?

I think that one major reason why people from lower stations in life don't have social intelligence or know how which can allow them to engage in some sort of social mobility does come down to biologically distorted family conditions at home.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9514
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Zhen Li » Thu May 30, 2013 8:48 am

Your statement said "all poor people." Universal. I did not, and would not, have made a universal claim.

As for "poor fathers are all alcoholic abusers." I did not even link alcoholic abuse to poor fathers at all, I was talking about "males."

This is all your own interpolation.

You are trying to find faults in others where there are none. Empty your cup.
Image
User avatar
Zhen Li
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 9:03 am

Right, I think this thread has about run its course.

I think people will agree that it has veered completely off topic so I will put it out of its misery.

If anybody has anything intelligent to add that has not already been said, please feel free to contact one of the staff members in order to include it in the thread.

lock.jpg
lock.jpg (5.2 KiB) Viewed 150 times
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9514
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Previous

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

>