Transgendered kids

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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Will » Thu May 30, 2013 3:47 am

Indrajala started this, but he is a Bhikshu - a baby Bhikshu granted. He deserves far more respect.

It is not good Dharma practice for lay folk to harangue a Bhikshu; bad karma in fact.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 3:48 am

Kirt, anybody can be subject to discrimination. No amount of privilege makes you immune to that...the wealthiest white straight man on the planet can still get knifed by a black kid with no money in the streets of compton...it doesn't mean, however, that Racism is not the reason Compton is ghetto of unbelievable danger, oppression, poverty, and suffering.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 3:50 am

I am mortified at what I've said, actually, Will. I don't want the Karma of having spoken harshly to Indrajala. But I'm a degenerate piece of excrement with no restraint, and I'm deluded enough to think that what I say may be really important for him to hear. Because I think he is numb to the suffering of people like my friends, and maybe that is worth all this argument.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 30, 2013 3:56 am

Will wrote:Indrajala started this, but he is a Bhikshu - a baby Bhikshu granted. He deserves far more respect.

It is not good Dharma practice for lay folk to harangue a Bhikshu; bad karma in fact.



It could have been phrased differently for sure, tempers run with this stuff. Surely we can disagree with someone ordained posting on a public forum though without threats of bad Karma. Indrajala is quite vocal about his views on this board, and also being a mod has a perfect place to present them, it's to be expected that (particularly someone who is actually gay) might get upset by the same rhetoric they have likely heard most of their lives from people who, like it or not, would rather they were just back in the closet. I'm all for us treating eachother well, but I also think anyone with a problem with Indrajala's views has the right to speak up about them. The post was a bit inflammatory I suppose, but not much more inflammatory than simply injecting one's (knowingly controversial) views into a discussion on a subject like this, which we've all done.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Thu May 30, 2013 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 4:16 am

I think in general the tone, content, and outcomes of this board are terrible. As somebody who's been a conflict resolution and interpersonal communication educator for the past five years, I know we would never speak this way to each other in person largely because our nonverbals would give us SOOO much more information about the sincerity and emotions of the people involved. We would never jump to so many conclusions, nor feel at liberty to be as snappy and passive aggressive. We would hear each other out, and only be able to respond to each other's meaning rather than poking and dissecting every little sentence apart like picky eaters.

I've been active on here for about a week and I'm afraid it's drudging up all of my most negative qualities. Karma Yoga? Or the path to hell.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 4:29 am

:alien:
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Dan74 » Thu May 30, 2013 5:09 am

FWIW, I think the tone and the content of the posts on the last few pages have been remarkably good, especially given the very sensitive subject. Surely we are adults here and can take a bit of heat without getting too hot under the collar?
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 5:13 am

Sorry when I say terrible, I'm judging against how we would interact face-to-face. Not to say that this has, objectively and in every way, been terrible.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Dan74 » Thu May 30, 2013 5:26 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:Sorry when I say terrible, I'm judging against how we would interact face-to-face. Not to say that this has, objectively and in every way, been terrible.


You may not have been around Buddhist fora for very long, my friend, and your standards may still be too high!

Thank you for holding your part of this conversation! I think posts that challenge are the best, though not easiest to swallow. To challenge and yet not cross the line into attacking, is not an easy task.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby greentara » Thu May 30, 2013 5:48 am

Indrajala. I agree with you. "There's even affirmative action whereby certain demographics like white males are at a disadvantage when applying for certain lucrative state jobs. I'm at a disadvantage in some ways.

In any case, I believe binary genders and traditional family life are conducive to healthy children and thus social stability"

In my neck of the woods political correctness seems to have everyone by the 'throat' People sometimes want to speak out but are unable to because of the loud voices of the minority that are very outspoken even aggressive!
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 6:00 am

Greentara:
In my neck of the woods political correctness seems to have everyone by the 'throat' People sometimes want to speak out but are unable to because of the loud voices of the minority that are very outspoken even aggressive!


Do they make you uncomfortable, greentara?
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu May 30, 2013 6:25 am

Image

The insistence on political correctness above makes me Really uncomfortable.
How dare they insist that people correct their bigotry.

This also makes me pretty uncomfortable, but it's not because it's politically correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_un ... der_people

I just want to say that uh, the people who got killed aren't to blame for it.

I can just hear the arguments now "if they just suppressed all their lifestyle choices, they would never have made all those men stab them to death in the streets after raping them!"
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 6:50 am

Indrajala wrote:You can decide not to pursue relationships of a certain type. Likewise you can simply pursue no relationships at all and be celibate. Celibacy is as much as lifestyle choice as living an active heterosexual lifestyle, or a transgendered one just as well.
It is true that you can choose not to pursue a certain sexual lifestyle, many LGBT people are FORCED to pursue a heterosexual lifestyle, but this does not change the way that they are actually feel in terms of their sexulity.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 6:54 am

Karma Dorje wrote:Whose "conservative values" and what "traditional family models"? The nuclear family disrupted much older extended family models at the time of the industrial revolution when a mobile workforce became a key requirement.


I never mentioned nuclear family arrangements. I think traditional family arrangements at this point include it, but also extended families based on defined binary genders. Biological mothers and fathers.

Yes, society is constantly changing, but when I look at places like Ladakh or even Japan and Taiwan where family still means a lot to people, I see safer societies and more stability. My grandfather's generation had something similar and I am rather envious of such arrangements. You always had someone to go to if you needed help. People relied on each other. Extended family meant a lot.


You could use your argument to say that we shouldn't allow refugees from Somalia to come here because their culture will be disruptive, or that only those that meet the religious standards of the majority should be allowed in.


Intelligent conservatives actually propose this. If a culture is predictably incompatible with local values and ways of doing things, they shouldn't be permitted in. This is actually quite logical, though another topic to be discussed elsewhere.

Fortunately, here in Canada we do not make arbitrary legal distinctions based on gender identification and protect our citizens from intolerance.


Canada is a nanny state with increasing levels of thought police. This is nothing to be proud of.


You are not responsible for the larger society's social ills, but you are responsible for your own words and ideas in this discourse which clearly demonstrate your bigotry.


:roll:

You grew up in Winnipeg. Do you seriously not think you were better off than people that grew up in the North End, dealing with alcoholic, often illiterate parents and high drop out rates?


You're jumping to conclusions about me when you know nothing about me.

My high school had problems with students bringing in guns. Most of my relatives dropped out of school. I did for a few months, too, but fortunately I had a compassionate teacher who helped me through my struggles.

I've been exposed to the evils of drugs (I never took any) and once had to deal with someone I know ending up in jail after a failed murder attempt on his mother after having taken shrooms. I've seen a lot of youth go through hell because of unstable family arrangements (quite often single parent families).

So, as a result of my past I've come to see social stability and solid family cohesion as paramount. I look at Japan or even Ladakh and envy their conservative values because for all the problems they face things seem a lot safer and stable. Households might have their internal problems, but it isn't like what I went through back home. Consequently, anything that undermines traditional households and family arrangements that otherwise work should be recognized as potentially the cause for social instability. That's why I am not key on the transgendered movement.

In Canada, almost every single corporation to speak of is headed by an executive team that is both white and male.


That's really more about class than it is about race. I grew up with minimal social connections and encouragement to get into higher education. I managed to get my education, sure, but not without a lot of personal struggle. I've had to suffer poverty and debt, too. I worked awful jobs at McDonalds and Subway where I was treated terribly. In retrospect I recognize it as class struggle. I was part of the proletariat, which isn't a racial issue at all.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 6:57 am

Will wrote:Indrajala started this, but he is a Bhikshu - a baby Bhikshu granted. He deserves far more respect.

It is not good Dharma practice for lay folk to harangue a Bhikshu; bad karma in fact.
Ooooooohhh... the don't speak your mind or you'll go to hell card! Haven't seen that one for a while.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 6:58 am

Will wrote:Indrajala started this, but he is a Bhikshu - a baby Bhikshu granted. He deserves far more respect.

It is not good Dharma practice for lay folk to harangue a Bhikshu; bad karma in fact.


Disagreeing with a monk is not a sin.

Discord is healthy. Critical discussion is to be cherished. Intelligent debate is to be praised. Hard talk is supposed to be hard. :smile:

So, people shouldn't hold anything back. If they want to criticize me and what I've said, they should go for it.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 7:05 am

gregkavarnos wrote:It is true that you can choose not to pursue a certain sexual lifestyle, many LGBT people are FORCED to pursue a heterosexual lifestyle, but this does not change the way that they are actually feel in terms of their sexulity.


From a Buddhist perspective pursuing any kind of sexuality is actually contrary to the path ultimately. That includes heterosexual lifestyles, too.

But nevertheless that doesn't suit most people to think of your general life pattern as basically unwholesome, contrary to the path of liberation and cause for future rebirths in the desire realm. It just leads to cognitive dissonance in most cases, I think.

Still, what's good for society is not necessarily going to please every individual. It might be unfair, but again if we believe that traditional gender roles lead to stability and healthy families, then the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Children growing up in public schools don't need to be exposed to ideas of gender neutral toilets and so forth.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 7:07 am

greentara wrote:In my neck of the woods political correctness seems to have everyone by the 'throat' People sometimes want to speak out but are unable to because of the loud voices of the minority that are very outspoken even aggressive!


In my neck of the woods at the moment what I'm proposing throughout this thread is common sense to Buddhists in most of Asia. If you tried to push the values of my opponents in this thread in most Buddhist organizations in Asia they'd probably react with bewilderment.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 30, 2013 7:17 am

Ven. Indrajala there are two things that I would like to point out:

1. The Buddha said life is suffering. He didn't say "alternative" family structures are suffering and "traditional" family structures are joy. People suffer in traditional family structures too. Traditional family structures are the source of a different source of instability, one born of repression, guilt, anxiety, etc... So forget it, "traditional" (whose tradition exactly?) family structures are suffering TOO. You know exactly what the Buddha felt about familys and liberation. Remember that he left his.

2. You were the product of a "broken home" and look at you now. A Bhikksu! :bow: :woohoo: :bow: Now I know that most of the other kids that were in similar familial situations to your own did not become Bhikksus, but guess what? The great majority of the people I know (that grew up in traditional homes) are not either. Now you may say that "at least they didn't get caught up in drugs and violence and suicide and... like the kids in my neighbourhood." Well, guess what, again? They did! I did.

So while I can sympathise with your view (even if I do not agree) I feel that too much of it has to do with projection/generalising based on your past experience, it just doesn't work like that. Maybe take the time to listen to others expereince, it will help you understand them. Then at least your opinion will be informed. I am getting the feeling that you are so hell bent on making your point that you are not listening to other peoples description of their experience (read suffering). Now while it is true that Buddhism is not JUST about feeling good (and part of it is, liberation from suffering is a key element) it is also not about making others feel bad (via guilt, for example).

Everyone is is a product of their karma and is responsible for their karma. You for yours, me for mine, etc... The bottom line is: we are all suffering.
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Re: Transgendered kids

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 30, 2013 7:20 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:That puts you at about the crispiest level of permafrost on top of the iceberg of privilege, Sramana. You are not Bill Gates, you're are not pulling in billions and living in a palm-tree shaped mansion that floats outside of Dubai, but you (and I) belong to the most privileged sliver of Humanity.


I'm still proletariat.

I don't buy white guilt, but I appreciate some Marxist ideas.


That's a 5th grade interpretation of MacKintosh. Come on, Indrajala. Until you find Nagarjuna more threatening to your worldview than a woman named Peggy, you should leave your white guilt at the door and really see if her article has valid observations.


I'm not as race obsessed as Americans often seem to be. I don't even like the term "race", though I know people believe in it, so I use it and identify as "white" because everyone tells me this is what I am.

Nevertheless, here in India there are people from Ladakh and Kashmir who look just like me, yet they're not "white". So what exactly does that say about the social construct of race?

Class is a better way to discuss privilege than race. As far as class in Canada goes, I was lower working class. In the global context I'm part of the aristocracy, sure, but that's not connected to race. Japanese passports get you the same perks.



... I'd rather be a human being and tell you that I've experienced just the tiniest fraction of what some people I know have suffered because of your worldview.


The alternative to my general worldview is possibly greater suffering as traditional family arrangements further disintegrate and you end up with broken families and all the social ills that come with it.

As I said, social stability often is paid for with a degree of injustice. Peace is secured through the threat of violence (military deterrence). We are all beneficiaries of violence carried out against the proletariat of the world and the environment. The fruits of capitalism are derived from exploitation of labourers. The economic arrangements that enable someone to get a sex change because they feel they were born in the wrong type of body is paid for in unfair ways. That's just the nature of saṃsāra, though you can still make the best out of a bad situation, which is what I've been proposing here.


The Gender Binary is invented.


Sex is biological, and while gender is a social construct, it is useful and has worked well in the past.
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