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 Post subject: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:54 am 
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People trying to express things, provide statements which are based on meaning. What is this meaning? If a meaning is solid and unshakable, it becomes truth. So things are true if they have solid meaning. But meaning, by definition, is only relation to the object it describes, not the object itself. We intellectually know if we "posses" meaning. Echo of an experience is being crystallized into meaning, which is then taken as truth. It can be said, that we know through meaning. "Self" is a meaning of experiences experienced by individual. Asking about "self" will be just asking for different meaning. But if we take away meaning, the what? What do we take away and what is left?

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Reading a statement does not mean one understands the meaning.....but without a statement/expression, the meaning cannot be grasped by the opposite.

If we were to take away the meaning.....then one is left with a statement/expression.....then a meaning will be applied as per receiver.....it is like asking a question but don't answer it.
What do we take away?.....the meaning of the expression/statement.
What is left?.....the expression/statement is still there.

.....meeting of minds?.....


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
If we were to take away the meaning.....then one is left with a statement/expression

Statement/expression means something, so you took away only part of the meaning.
Quote:
.....meeting of minds?.....

Maybe, but meaning is not only dedicated to human relations.

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:04 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Statement/expression means something, so you took away only part of the meaning.
yes, while the statement/expression remains, it is open to interpretation by others.

Quote:
.....meaning is not only dedicated to human relations.
What do you have in mind?


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:37 am 
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oushi wrote:
People trying to express things, provide statements which are based on meaning. What is this meaning? If a meaning is solid and unshakable, it becomes truth. So things are true if they have solid meaning. But meaning, by definition, is only relation to the object it describes, not the object itself. We intellectually know if we "posses" meaning. Echo of an experience is being crystallized into meaning, which is then taken as truth. It can be said, that we know through meaning. "Self" is a meaning of experiences experienced by individual. Asking about "self" will be just asking for different meaning. But if we take away meaning, the what? What do we take away and what is left?


When there is "one truth and at the same time many truths", no ground for any meaning is.

But I don't give up. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Nothing wrote:
yes, while the statement/expression remains, it is open to interpretation by others.

Being open is also meaning.
Nothing wrote:
What do you have in mind?

When you see falling leafs, it means that winter is coming.

muni wrote:
When there is "one truth and at the same time many truths", no ground for any meaning is.

But I don't give up. :smile:

Meaninglessness is the ground, but what meaning is, and why is it so powerful? It seems that meaning draws attention, and triggers clinging, so it's like gravity that binds object together. That would explain human behavior, and desire to make everything perfect. But what for, when meaningless is already perfect? Maybe meaning is another dimension that needs to be sorted out?

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:58 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Being open is also meaning.
yes it does. Unless we take the entire statement/expression out completely.

Quote:
When you see falling leafs, it means that winter is coming.
ok, just an event, or we could say it is an effect.....the effect cannot happen without the right conditions.....furthermore, the effect cannot happen without the initial cause.

Quote:
.....Maybe meaning is another dimension that needs to be sorted out?
or to be understood!


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:21 pm 
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oushi wrote:
Meaninglessness is the ground, but what meaning is, and why is it so powerful? It seems that meaning draws attention, and triggers clinging, so it's like gravity that binds object together. That would explain human behavior, and desire to make everything perfect. But what for, when meaningless is already perfect? Maybe meaning is another dimension that needs to be sorted out?


Our human mind in its misperception already is clinging, focussing to truly existences. My mind takes phenomena for real - solid, so looks for a meaning.

The meaning of meaningfull expressions or phenomena which liberate, cannot be realized when there is investigation in a conceptual meaning of the solid phenomena/words.
What you say about desire to make everything perfect, to modelate phenomena is indeed a trigger to keep the movie turning.
Easy to say, but in that way I see the meaning of your words. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:36 pm 
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oushi wrote:
People trying to express things, provide statements which are based on meaning. What is this meaning? If a meaning is solid and unshakable, it becomes truth. So things are true if they have solid meaning. But meaning, by definition, is only relation to the object it describes, not the object itself. We intellectually know if we "posses" meaning. Echo of an experience is being crystallized into meaning, which is then taken as truth. It can be said, that we know through meaning. "Self" is a meaning of experiences experienced by individual. Asking about "self" will be just asking for different meaning. But if we take away meaning, the what? What do we take away and what is left?


Mutual mental projections.


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:15 pm 
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muni wrote:
oushi wrote:
Meaninglessness is the ground, but what meaning is, and why is it so powerful? It seems that meaning draws attention, and triggers clinging, so it's like gravity that binds object together. That would explain human behavior, and desire to make everything perfect. But what for, when meaningless is already perfect? Maybe meaning is another dimension that needs to be sorted out?


Our human mind in its misperception already is clinging, focussing to truly existences. My mind takes phenomena for real - solid, so looks for a meaning.

The meaning of meaningfull expressions or phenomena which liberate, cannot be realized when there is investigation in a conceptual meaning of the solid phenomena/words.
What you say about desire to make everything perfect, to modelate phenomena is indeed a trigger to keep the movie turning.
Easy to say, but in that way I see the meaning of your words. :smile:

Is it only about seeing meaning? When you do not see meaning anywhere, who/what are you to yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:57 am 
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oushi wrote:
When you do not see meaning anywhere, who/what are you to yourself?


:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:23 am 
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There is production of meaningless sound in the context of larynge. Meaningless sound meets ear. Meaning arises. This may metaphorically be narrated as "Someone teaches something." although actually nothing has been taught but meaningless sound has been produced and meaningless sound has met ear and meaning has arisen. It may also be metaphorically narrated as "Mind has been transmitted." although mind cannot be found and nothing actually has been transmitted but meaningless sound. :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:25 pm 
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So, what is the meaning of meaning?

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:48 am 
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Arising of meaning qua affirmed meaning may be called arising of consciousness. Arising of meaning qua non-affirmed meaning may be called "mindfulness" or "awareness" of dependent arising.

oushi wrote:
So, what is the meaning of meaning?

It "means" ("It is") an instance of dependent arising. Which of course hints at just another dependently arisen meaning having caused production of meaningless forms aka words. :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:30 am 
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ground wrote:
It "means"

:oops:
Meaning is empty. In other words, there is no meaning of meaning. It's just a meaningless agreement. "if... then..."

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:47 pm 
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oushi wrote:
ground wrote:
It "means"

:oops:
Meaning is empty. In other words, there is no meaning of meaning. It's just a meaningless agreement. "if... then..."

"empty" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness. "meaning" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness.
Why say "Meaning is empty" which means "Cause1 of meaning1 is cause2 of meaning2" (cause mode) or "Consciousness1 is consciousness2" (effect mode) . What does that mean? :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm 
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ground wrote:
oushi wrote:
ground wrote:
It "means"

:oops:
Meaning is empty. In other words, there is no meaning of meaning. It's just a meaningless agreement. "if... then..."

"empty" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness. "meaning" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness.
Why say "Meaning is empty" which means "Cause1 of meaning1 is cause2 of meaning2" (cause mode) or "Consciousness1 is consciousness2" (effect mode) . What does that mean? :sage:

Meaning slowly dissolves into meaningless, true experience beyond concepts. Meaning is empty even from the "meaningful" point of view. I can say, stay in meaninglessness and it may be enough for some, but those that are attached to meaning won't even try. That is why I ask about meaning of meaning, so even without abandoning meaning, meaningless is naturally found. Same goes for the nature of nature, or emptiness of emptiness. This barrier mind cannot pass, as it is the gateless gate. That which passes, is not "that" not self, not other, not here, not there, and nothing opposite. All extremes dissolve when meaning is dropped (quite simple and logical).

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:23 pm 
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oushi wrote:
ground wrote:
oushi wrote:
Meaning is empty. In other words, there is no meaning of meaning. It's just a meaningless agreement. "if... then..."

"empty" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness. "meaning" may cause the dependent arising of meaning aka consciousness.
Why say "Meaning is empty" which means "Cause1 of meaning1 is cause2 of meaning2" (cause mode) or "Consciousness1 is consciousness2" (effect mode) . What does that mean? :sage:

Meaning slowly dissolves into meaningless, true experience beyond concepts. Meaning is empty even from the "meaningful" point of view. I can say, stay in meaninglessness and it may be enough for some, but those that are attached to meaning won't even try. That is why I ask about meaning of meaning, so even without abandoning meaning, meaningless is naturally found. Same goes for the nature of nature, or emptiness of emptiness. This barrier mind cannot pass, as it is the gateless gate. That which passes, is not "that" not self, not other, not here, not there, and nothing opposite. All extremes dissolve when meaning is dropped (quite simple and logical).


What that means is that "you try to express yourself". But since the sense of self arises dependently the way it is expressed arises dependently too ... dependent on having seen forms (words) or heared sounds (words) of others and learned to fabricate meanings related to these forms and sounds . :sage:


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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 pm 
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ground wrote:
What that means is that "you try to express yourself". But since the sense of self arises dependently the way it is expressed arises dependently too ... dependent on having seen forms (words) or heared sounds (words) of others and learned to fabricate meanings related to these forms and sounds . :sage:

Yes, everything in self is dependent. There is no Buddha in self, not even a speck. There is no point in stopping those dependencies, or modifying them.

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 Post subject: Re: What meaning is?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Quote:
.while the statement/expression remains, it is open to interpretation by others.....
.Being open is also meaning.....
.yes it does. Unless we take the entire statement/expression out completely.....
Even the statement being taken out, it does not mean that there is no meaning, all this means is that the right conditions are not there for it to prosper.

So when we say:
Quote:
"what is the meaning of meaning?"
Meaning cannot simply be empty, that is a different thing.

When we say:
Quote:
there is no meaning of meaning. It's just a meaningless agreement. "if...then..."
That is the same as saying meaning has no meaning as it is empty.

Meaning and empty are clearly not the same.
Now the words "if" and "then" only applies when things are not known.....but because it is unknown does not simply mean that there is no meaning.....or meaningless agreement.


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