Eckhart Tolle on christmas

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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Jikan wrote:
lowlydog wrote:There seems to be much fear in regards to Eckharts books amongst the Buddhist community. :shrug:


I think Tolle's books are mostly met by disinterest and boredom among the Buddhists I've been around.

:cheers:


Howls of protest! I have seen several cases where they were met by mild interest . :tantrum:

More seriously, he's pretty hot stuff among the more New Agey Buddhists (also Deepak Chopra). But I have a highly skewed viewpoint, since I live near his home town and it's pretty much saturated in New Age philosophy, so I have to wonder if I am getting a representative sample.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sonny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:02 pm

Jikan wrote:


Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get along fine.

:cheers:


:bow:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby futerko » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:03 pm

Jikan wrote:Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get along fine.


Ah, but someone always goes and ruins it by claiming they are The One to have grasped the truth, and getting themselves crucified in the process (metaphorically speaking, of course).
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:34 pm

Jikan wrote:
lowlydog wrote:There seems to be much fear in regards to Eckharts books amongst the Buddhist community. :shrug:


I think Tolle's books are mostly met by disinterest and boredom among the Buddhists I've been around. I haven't seen much fear; I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think Tolle is seen as a threat by Buddhists. Same goes for other writers in the "spirituality" section such as Ken Wilber, Marc Gafni, Andrew Cohen, &c.

What excites people is the Equation Game: making such claims as "some aspects of Tolle's writings look Buddhist-y, therefore Tolle is a Buddhist writer (or understands Dharma better than Buddhists do)," or "Wilber talks about Emptiness a lot, therefore he understands Nagarjuna better than this tradition or that teacher" and so on. These are silly claims because they're very difficult to demonstrate at best (being polite here).



Keep putting those walls up, pretty soon there will be three or four different DW Buddhist forums. The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get along fine.

More like let Tolle be Tolle over there, let Buddhism be Buddhism right here and we Buddhists can all remain blind and happy in our isolated protected environment. FEAR FEAR FEAR.
One of my other teachers says if it is Dhamma it is Dhamma.
The Buddha never taught a sectarian religion; he taught Dhamma - the way to liberation - which is universal. In the same tradition, Mr. Goenka's approach is totally non-sectarian. For this reason, his teaching has a profound appeal to people of all backgrounds, of every religion and no religion, and from every part of the world. :shrug:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby lowlydog » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:38 pm

catmoon wrote:More seriously, he's pretty hot stuff among the more New Agey Buddhists (also Deepak Chopra). But I have a highly skewed viewpoint, since I live near his home town and it's pretty much saturated in New Age philosophy, so I have to wonder if I am getting a representative sample.


What is a New agey Buddhist?

I smell a New agey Dharma Wheel in the works. Dibs on the name. :jumping:
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sonny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:48 pm

I don't understand how merely pointing out differences = putting up walls. A mountain and a river are different, they are not the same, that does not mean the one is more valuable than the other, or that they would only be of fair and equal value if they were the same. They are different, and at the same time each of equal and utter value.
Just making distinctions between things, nothing wrong with that. Same or different, problems only arise when we get biased or judgmental.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
martin123 wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:I
got more important things to do right now, like wash the dishes!
;)

If we are going to disscuss tolle if would be helpful to watch a video
or too,or else we are sort of wasting our time.or if one isnt interested
thats fin too.but no real point in commenting.
I have watched a
couple of his videos in the past. His explanations are the same old
pseudo-Christian patchwork of New Age spiritual borrowings that you find
all over the place. He is nothing new. He just has Oprah backing him.
That's why he is famous. If he didn't have Oprah backing him he would
have drowned in the cesspool of New Age feel-goody bargain bin buys
ages ago. Once people grow bored of him, or the next Oprah pushes the
next Tolle, he will also disappear. A vague cyber space memory and a
few dog earred copies at the local garage sale is all that will be left.
:namaste:

I dont think Tolle is bothered if Oprah dropped him or not.Oprah just jumped on him,he is being indiscrimitive to present his teaching to people.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:52 pm

If you and others here think that Tolle is Maitreya, or an Avatar of Vishnu, or Jesus's second coming, or the next Mohammad or whatever, well bully for you. But don't try to impose him on others, that's just not cool. Tolle is clearly not a Buddhist. Soe of his teachings sound like Buddhism, yes. Some of Christs teachings sound like Buddhism. Does that make Christ a Buddha?

If you want to paint Tolle as a Buddhist and his teachings as Dharma/Dhamma then you have to ask yourself:

Do his teachings satisfy the Dharma seals? That is does he teach:
Anicca (Sanskrit anitya) "inconstancy" or "impermanence". This refers to the fact that all conditioned things (sankhara) are in a constant state of flux. In reality there is no thing that ultimately ceases to exist; only the appearance of a thing ceases as it changes from one form to another. Imagine a leaf that falls to the ground and decomposes. While the appearance and relative existence of the leaf ceases, the components that formed the leaf become particulate material that may go on to form new plants. Buddhism teaches a middle way, avoiding the extreme views of eternalism and nihilism.
Dukkha (Sanskrit duhkha) or dissatisfaction (or "dis-ease"; also often translated "suffering", though this is somewhat misleading). Nothing found in the physical world or even the psychological realm can bring lasting deep satisfaction.
Anatta (Sanskrit anatman) or "non-Self" is used in the suttas both as a noun and as a predicative adjective to denote that phenomena are not, or are without, a self; to describe any and all composite, consubstantial, phenomenal and temporal things, from the macrocosmic to microcosmic, be it matter pertaining to the physical body or the cosmos at large, as well as any and all mental machinations, which are impermanent.
There is often a fourth Dharma Seal mentioned:
Nirvana is peace. Nirvana is the "other shore" from samsara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence

If he does, then he is teaching BuddhaDharma. If not, then he is teaching Tolleism (which has a couple of points that are similar to Dharma).
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:44 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you and others
here think that Tolle is Maitreya, or an Avatar of Vishnu, or Jesus's
second coming, or the next Mohammad or whatever, well bully for you.
But don't try to impose him on others, that's just not cool. Tolle is
clearly not a Buddhist. Soe of his teachings sound like Buddhism, yes.
Some of Christs teachings sound like Buddhism. Does that make Christ a
Buddha?

If you want to paint Tolle as a Buddhist and his teachings as
Dharma/Dhamma then you have to ask yourself:

Do his teachings satisfy the Dharma seals? That is does he teach:
Anicca (Sanskrit anitya) "inconstancy" or "impermanence". This
refers to the fact that all conditioned things (sankhara) are in a
constant state of flux. In reality there is no thing that ultimately
ceases to exist; only the appearance of a thing ceases as it changes
from one form to another. Imagine a leaf that falls to the ground and
decomposes. While the appearance and relative existence of the leaf
ceases, the components that formed the leaf become particulate material
that may go on to form new plants. Buddhism teaches a middle way,
avoiding the extreme views of eternalism and nihilism.
Dukkha (Sanskrit duhkha) or dissatisfaction (or "dis-ease"; also often
translated "suffering", though this is somewhat misleading). Nothing
found in the physical world or even the psychological realm can bring
lasting deep satisfaction.
Anatta (Sanskrit anatman) or "non-Self" is used in the suttas both as a
noun and as a predicative adjective to denote that phenomena are not, or
are without, a self; to describe any and all composite, consubstantial,
phenomenal and temporal things, from the macrocosmic to microcosmic, be
it matter pertaining to the physical body or the cosmos at large, as
well as any and all mental machinations, which are impermanent.
There is often a fourth Dharma Seal mentioned:
Nirvana is peace. Nirvana is the "other shore" from samsara.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence

If he does, then he is teaching BuddhaDharma. If not, then he is
teaching Tolleism (which has a couple of points that are similar to
Dharma).
:namaste:

Yes Tolle teaching focuses on these points.this is in complete accord with what he is saying.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:10 pm

Fine. So then the next point, in order to verify if he is a Buddhist or not, is whether he teaches refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Does he teach refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sonny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:22 pm

Martin, please add a link to a teaching by Tolle teaching the Four Seals.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:31 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Fine.
So then the next point, in order to verify if he is a Buddhist or not,
is whether he teaches refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Does he
teach refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha?
:namaste:

I dont think anyone is saying that tolle is a buddhist. thats not important,what important is whether his teacching is in accord with the buddha's .
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:33 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Fine. So then the next point, in order to verify if he is a Buddhist or not, is whether he teaches refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Does he teach refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha?
:namaste:



Yeah but does anyone even care if he is a Buddhist or not? The Pope is Catholic, that's not a problem. Desmond Tutu is an Anglican, that's not a problem. Tolle is not a Buddhist, why is that a problem? A dog is not a horse, does that mean we should shoot all the dogs?
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:42 pm


Keep putting those walls up, pretty soon there will be three or four different DW Buddhist forums. The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get along fine.

More like let Tolle be Tolle over there, let Buddhism be Buddhism right here and we Buddhists can all remain blind and happy in our isolated protected environment. FEAR FEAR FEAR.
One of my other teachers says if it is Dhamma it is Dhamma.
The Buddha never taught a sectarian religion; he taught Dhamma - the way to liberation - which is universal. In the same tradition, Mr. Goenka's approach is totally non-sectarian. For this reason, his teaching has a profound appeal to people of all backgrounds, of every religion and no religion, and from every part of the world. :shrug:


Debating what Dharma is and isn't is not sectarianism though, sectarianism would be advocating one sect over another. This is actually about what Tolle teaches, which you haven't addressed at all other than to say "well it's the same as Dharma", even though it's been mentioned a bunch that it lacks things that would make it Dharma. There is nothing sectarian about that, I can find innumerable Buddhist sects that teach these things.

So far, it seems like you're saying I could take literally anything and say it's Dharma, as long as it kept to the "It's all one" philosophy.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:51 pm

Sonny wrote:Martin, please add a link to a teaching by Tolle teaching the Four Seals.

Sonny, one would have to look comprehensively at his teachings to see that they are covered.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:

Keep putting those walls up, pretty soon there will be three or four
different DW Buddhist forums. The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be
"owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a
Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud...

Let Tolle be Tolle, let Buddhism be Buddhism, and everyone will get
along fine.

More like let Tolle be Tolle over there, let Buddhism be Buddhism right
here and we Buddhists can all remain blind and happy in our isolated
protected environment. FEAR FEAR FEAR.
One of my other teachers says if it is Dhamma it is Dhamma.
The Buddha never taught a sectarian religion; he taught Dhamma - the way
to liberation - which is universal. In the same tradition, Mr. Goenka's
approach is totally non-sectarian. For this reason, his teaching has a
profound appeal to people of all backgrounds, of every religion and no
religion, and from every part of the world. :shrug:


Debating what Dharma is and isn't is not sectarianism though,
sectarianism would be advocating one sect over another. This is actually
about what Tolle teaches, which you haven't addressed at all other than
to say "well it's the same as Dharma", even though it's been mentioned a
bunch that it lacks things that would make it Dharma. There is nothing
sectarian about that, I can find innumerable Buddhist sects that teach
these things.

So far, it seems like you're saying I could take literally anything and
say it's Dharma, as long as it kept to the "It's all one"
philosophy.

what are the things it lacks,that would make it dharma?
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sonny » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:56 pm

martin123 wrote:
Sonny wrote:Martin, please add a link to a teaching by Tolle teaching the Four Seals.

Sonny, one would have to look comprehensively at his teachings to see that they are covered.


Thanks but I think not. My sister really likes his stuff, and that is great! Happy to know she has found something she finds helpful! But from what she has shared with me, I beg to differ, from what I saw, as far as I am concerned, he does not teach Buddha dharma. That is why I asked for a link from you, that would have been helpful. Never mind then.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby catmoon » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Hmmm ten minutes with Google produced a third party desciption of a Tolle talk a few years back.

Eckhart talked at length about impermanence, which is a fundamental concept in Buddhist studies. In fact, it's called the First Dharma Seal. But it's common sense: everything is changing, all the time. Nothing is exactly the same as it was a moment ago, or a year ago. From Thich Nhat Hanh's The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching:

“The Buddha taught that everything is impermanent––flowers, tables, mountains, political regimes, bodies, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. We can not find anything that is permanent.”
Eckhart pointed out that media that portrays impermanence effects transformation. He pointed out the film Titanic, and how it showed the young Rose and the elderly Rose, as well as the gleaming new ship rising from the image of the wrecked ship underwater. These remind us of the impermanence of life, which, in turn, reminds us to embrace the present moment.


So he's bang on the money with the First Seal at least.
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:04 pm

catmoon wrote:Yeah but does anyone even care if he is a Buddhist or not? The Pope is Catholic, that's not a problem. Desmond Tutu is an Anglican, that's not a problem. Tolle is not a Buddhist, why is that a problem? A dog is not a horse, does that mean we should shoot all the dogs?
These statements were made:
"Dharma is Dharma expressed through any form, Why do you guys always want to put dead guys on such unreachable pedestles and ignore the living enlightened ones who can exemplify the path?"
"Once you familiarise yourself with Tolle's language, which I understand can be a barrier for some especially if English is a second language, I'm certain you will find his teachings in line with the Buddha's."
"The Buddhas teachings were not meant to be "owned" by one religious group, as I've stated Sidarth Gotama was not a Buddhist, he was just a man who rediscovered this truth.
Hmmm.. so did Eckhart, maybe he's a living Bud..."
"Yes Tolle teaching focuses on these points (Dharma Seals).this is in complete accord with what he is saying." (which is kind of back to front logic, it would be more correct to say that Tolles words are in accord with the Dharma Seals, since they predate Tolle by a couple of millenia)

So for me it seems logical to establish whether his teachings are in line with the four seals thus making them Dharma (which a couple of people claim they are) and whether he satisifes the "credentials" of being a Buddhist (just to clarify what sort of Dharma he is teaching). Where is the problem in that?

I would say that his use of the term "Being" as a for synonym for "God" may be contrary to the first of the four Dharma Seals. since belief in God (regardless of whether it is in a dualistic relationship or not) normally entails a form of eternalism .

And anyway, this is a Buddhist forum so why does it seem strange to you if people compare what Tolle teahes to Buddhism?
:namaste:
PS I've alway wondered what sort of reception New Agers get on Abrahamic forums, I mean do they only congregate on Hindu and Buddhist forums since they figure they won't get their asses kicked?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Eckhart Tolle on christmas

Postby martin123 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:07 pm

Sonny wrote:
martin123 wrote:
Sonny wrote:Martin,
please add a link to a teaching by Tolle teaching the Four
Seals.

Sonny, one would have to look comprehensively at his teachings to see
that they are covered.


Thanks but I think not. My sister really likes his stuff, and that is
great! Happy to know she has found something she finds helpful! But
from what she has shared with me, I beg to differ, from what I saw, as
far as I am concerned, he does not teach Buddha dharma. That is why I
asked for a link from you, that would have been helpful. Never mind
then.

im not suggesting u do that.
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