Who's truth is it anyway ?

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Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby garudha » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:43 am

One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:
Love's compassion for ignorance is infinite. // "Moreover, Maitreya, apprehending objects are also apprehended objects." -The Samdhinirmocana Sutra.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Ayu » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:27 am

garudha wrote:...
How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?


How could it be the other way round in a world of percepted illusions? The rainbowbubble "truth" bursts as soon as you try to grip it.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:22 am

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:
Because they are not the truth, they are just ignorant opinions. So, good luck with your "truth".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Jesse » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:23 pm

Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind. There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth. If there is such a thing as truth, it's likely were far too immature to deal with it.
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Jesse » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:39 pm

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:


Anyway, we all need our personal truths to keep us going, I hope you found something profound. :namaste:
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Hieros Gamos » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:49 pm

Jesse wrote:no such thing as one single truth

True.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:20 pm

You know what the word Dharma means?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby duckfiasco » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:22 pm

We may be missing the forest for the trees, guys.
My impression is garudha was talking about the intimacy of personal truth versus some sterile idea that we hear secondhand. Too often, "truth" is divorced from lived experience.
In fact, in US culture at least, the less "truth" has to do with human experience, the more authority it gets!

In terms of the dharma, I think it's a rather matter of suffering, not solely a matter of truth, thank goodness.
Too often, the truth is really just rationalizing habits of selfishness.
I've personally found "wise" and "foolish" to be a more useful framework than true/false.

Anyway, that's my two cents' worth of nonsense on the matter. :zzz:
Namu Amida Butsu
The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
- Sengcan (tr. Suzuki)
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Jesse » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:52 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?


It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby ovi » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:59 pm

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

You should read the Kalama Sutta again.
garudha wrote:Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That means refusing to learn anything from someone else. If science worked this way, we'd still be in the stone age.
Jesse wrote:Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind.

That's just false. The truth is the description of reality. There's nothing subjective in a physical formula, conservation of momentum for instance is a law of the universe we live in (based on a certain symmetry of it). It's not complete in itself, but it is based on something real about the universe. From a scientific point of view, you can talk about instrumentalism or scientific realism for instance.

Jesse wrote:There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth.

There is a single truth about the nature of existence. There are many things yet to be discovered in fundamental physics, but the truth of the nature of existence is unchanging (that is impermanence, dukkha and anatta/sunyata).
Jesse wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?


It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.

Yet if you stop clinging to any views and actually try to understand the nature of existence, you come to realize that Buddhist teachings to indeed get you to higher levels of realization, hence the ability to have trust in the Dharma without clinging to any views.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Jesse » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:36 pm

ovi wrote:
garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

You should read the Kalama Sutta again.
garudha wrote:Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That means refusing to learn anything from someone else. If science worked this way, we'd still be in the stone age.
Jesse wrote:Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind.

That's just false. The truth is the description of reality. There's nothing subjective in a physical formula, conservation of momentum for instance is a law of the universe we live in (based on a certain symmetry of it). It's not complete in itself, but it is based on something real about the universe. From a scientific point of view, you can talk about instrumentalism or scientific realism for instance.

Jesse wrote:There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth.

There is a single truth about the nature of existence. There are many things yet to be discovered in fundamental physics, but the truth of the nature of existence is unchanging (that is impermanence, dukkha and anatta/sunyata).
Jesse wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?


It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.

Yet if you stop clinging to any views and actually try to understand the nature of existence, you come to realize that Buddhist teachings to indeed get you to higher levels of realization, hence the ability to have trust in the Dharma without clinging to any views.


I'm pretty sure many of your laws of physics would cease to work in a black hole, or potentially in another part of the universe. So, physical laws are subjective. Does the universe even exist without life or consciousness to perceive it? You can't say yes or no, because it's unanswerable.

I said there are 'truths', plural, not a single truth. If impermanence is an unchanging truth, then why do thing's never become permanent? Kind of paradoxical.

Shrug. Whatever
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Hieros Gamos » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:04 pm

Without renunciation, no stable method. Without method, no wisdom. Without wisdom, no living in awareness. Them's the breaks.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby ovi » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:18 pm

Jesse wrote:I'm pretty sure many of your laws of physics would cease to work in a black hole, or potentially in another part of the universe. So, physical laws are subjective.

The laws of physics still hold in a black hole. Plus, that has nothing to do with subjectivity...
Jesse wrote:Does the universe even exist without life or consciousness to perceive it? You can't say yes or no, because it's unanswerable.

That doesn't make the truth subjective.
Jesse wrote:I said there are 'truths', plural, not a single truth. If impermanence is an unchanging truth, then why do thing's never become permanent? Kind of paradoxical.

Because they are impermanent. There is no contradiction.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby LastLegend » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:28 pm

The only Dharma is Buddharma of Dharmakaya of emptiness. Anything else is the method.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Gnosis984 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:08 am

To me, Truth represents Dharmakya, as best a word can. Talking of Truth can be dangerous. By applying words, feelings, etc to abstract concepts, it is important to not cling to our perception of that concept, no matter how subtle an abstraction. I find mysellf continuously realizing, while lost in thought, that I am again stuck in duality chasing words.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:26 pm

Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.

Nevertheless we hold our opinions and beliefs to be true, at least when we have enough faith in them. Opinions are not worthless, they're what make us human.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby ovi » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:56 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.

Then it's irrelevant. However, there is nothing subjective in a rock falling to the ground, subjectivity and objectivity actually mean something.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:49 pm

Gnosis984 wrote:To me, Truth represents Dharmakya, as best a word can. Talking of Truth can be dangerous. By applying words, feelings, etc to abstract concepts, it is important to not cling to our perception of that concept, no matter how subtle an abstraction. I find mysellf continuously realizing, while lost in thought, that I am again stuck in duality chasing words.


A common problem. For me, it's no longer a problem of clinging to concept of truth. It's more of a faith or doubt problem on and off. But I've come to an understanding that I am the non-realized Dharma, Truth myself. The difference between a Buddha and a sentient being is one is truly realized and the other is deluded.

Linjii, Do you wish to be not different from the Buddhas and patriarchs? Then just do not look for anything outside. The pure light of your own heart [i.e., 心, mind] at this instant is the Dharmakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-differentiating light of your heart at this instant is the Sambhogakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-discriminating light of your own heart at this instant is the Nirmanakaya Buddha in your own house. This trinity of the Buddha's body is none other than he here before your eyes, listening to my expounding the Dharma.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:28 pm

ovi wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.

Then it's irrelevant. However, there is nothing subjective in a rock falling to the ground, subjectivity and objectivity actually mean something.


Of course we can assume with a fair degree of certainty that rocks do fall to the ground occasionally, that does not mean we know objective truth. We filter the world through our senses, intuitions, biases, and knowledge. That makes everything we think or feel or perceive subjective.

There is an objective truth "out there" (and in here), and our subjective truth ideally strives to approximate objective truth. But they are never the same thing. Objective truth is reality, subjective truth is its interpretation in our mind.
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Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Postby LastLegend » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:54 pm

In my understanding, we embody the objective truth of non-self interconnected nature of all things. Upon analysis, everything is interconnected through dependent relationship. There is not a thing or mental event that exists independently by itself. This Dharma is the objective truth. We embody this Dharma, and everything else also embodies this Dharma. Dharmakaya refers to this realized nature/Dharma, known as Buddha. Sentient beings are ones who have not realized this Dharma/Dharma Body of all phenomena.

Conceptually we can see that, "He who sees Dhamma sees Tathagata, He who sees Tathagata sees Dhamma." So Dharma is Buddha, and Buddha is Dharma. Sentient beings are Dharma, and Dharma are sentient beings, except we have not realized Dharma. So we are not called true Buddha.

To me, this is not so abstract at least not anymore. The only abstract "thing" is our awareness but it's always present right in front of us. We don't have to look for it. But this awareness is not an independent entity by itself because if it would not be empty and considered a thing. It's not separate from appearances/forms/bodies. Within awareness, there is appearance. Within appearance, there is awareness. This non-separation is the nature, Dharma. When separated in the case of heavenly mind only beings, it is due to false view/delusion.
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