Modern Education

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Re: Modern Education

Postby Indrajala » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:29 pm

Jikan wrote:Would you please name some names here?


This is one prominent work I have in mind in respect to the disposablility of males:

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Boys-With ... ut+fathers

Your generalizations are, to be polite, wildly implausible and quite reactionary absent such substance.


Let's be fair: this isn't an academic forum and I don't have access to any suitable library or JSTOR to find articles and statistics to support my points, so let's understand this conversation will have to remain at coffee lounge levels.

Incidentally, I'm well aware my opinions here will be unpopular in this community, so I don't expect much support for what I'm saying. I anticipate a lot of hostility actually, which is fine.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby uan » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:57 pm

Huseng wrote:Let's be fair: this isn't an academic forum and I don't have access to any suitable library or JSTOR to find articles and statistics to support my points, so let's understand this conversation will have to remain at coffee lounge levels.


we are in the lounge :D


Huseng wrote:Incidentally, I'm well aware my opinions here will be unpopular in this community, so I don't expect much support for what I'm saying. I anticipate a lot of hostility actually, which is fine.


I don't think they are unpopular opinions, more in the minority (unpopular brings to my mind, at least, booing and hissing from the cheap seats). But no hostility from me Huseng. :cheers:
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Jikan » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:19 pm

You're entitled to your opinion, Huseng. It's just that the description of feminism you present does not correspond very well to the situation at hand. You're right to expect disagreement because of this mismatch between your stated position and the facts of ordinary people's lives.

I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Modern Education

Postby Jikan » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:41 pm

uan wrote:I don't think they are unpopular opinions, more in the minority (unpopular brings to my mind, at least, booing and hissing from the cheap seats). But no hostility from me Huseng. :cheers:


Certainly. That's why I used the word "reactionary." The opinions Huseng articulated, as he articulated them, are on the map of the political landscape. "Reactionary" is the name for that place. I mean that strictly in the descriptive sense.

While it's true that I disagree with Huseng's position as stated so far, it is not my wish to put Huseng down or marginalize his views. Hostility is unhelpful and inhumane.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:16 am

Jikan wrote:You're entitled to your opinion, Huseng. It's just that the description of feminism you present does not correspond very well to the situation at hand. You're right to expect disagreement because of this mismatch between your stated position and the facts of ordinary people's lives.

I'll leave it at that.

:namaste:


How is your claim any more substantial than mine if all you're saying is that, in your opinion, my stated positions are mismatched with the "facts of ordinary people's lives", whatever that means.

You haven't addressed any of my points and just resorted to calling them reactionary. It is your own statements against mine that lack substance.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Punya » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:05 am

I'm glad we're in the lounge because I'm not an academic but this my take on the impact of feminism. It comes from the perspective of being of a late baby-boomer so I have experienced the rapid social change that have occurred in the post WW2 era. The rise of feminism has only been one of those changes.

I consider feminist objectives as being part of the larger objective of seeking to treat eveyone equally regardless of colour, beliefs or gender. Equality of education, job opportunities and the right to live life the way in which we choose. These are ideals that seem to be able to be implemented more easily in countries where there is a strong social welfare system such as those of Scandinavia.

In Australia, where I live, feminism has been reasonably successful in giving women some opportunities: education, job choices and financial independence. Rather than blaming the rise of feminism for all of my country's ills I see number of other causes eg we still live in a capitalist society which highly values material wealth, attendance in the Christian churches has rapidly declined and this, along with an emphasis on individualism, has led to a decline in moral values in some quarters. Secularisation has also had an impact on community life and has lead to some social alienation. Increased mobility has resulted in many children living in a nuclear family which has many pressures for both both men and women.

I don't seek to return to the patriarchal societies of the past but to a societal future that is less materialistic, more community oriented, more environmental and more spiritual. The Transition Town movement probably best reflects where I'd like to see us head. This should include greater opportunities for men to participate in child rearing through shorter working hours (with a corresponding reduction in income) and a greater acceptance of men being the primary care giver. All of this is possible in Australia, partly due to the work of the unions who have ensured the maintenance of a living wage.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby shaunc » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:15 am

I'd just like to say that I agree with most of Husengs points. I've lived most of my life in Australia but have also spent a considerable amount of time in the Philippines. I can personally vouch that a lot of what huseng has said is fairly true as far as my observations go.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:06 am

Huseng is right, of course.

For example, actual Feminists like Susan B Anthony were firmly pro-life. Can you imagine pro-life Feminists? :D

Then the druggies and misfits of the 60s changed Feminism to be pro-abortion. Why?

So they could have responsibility free sex of course.

I support equal rights and oppose Feminism.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Astus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:06 am

I think this comparison of different feminisms are somewhat like different socialist ideas. There was the Soviet Socialist system, never really worked and eventually the whole ideology has disappeared. On the other hand, Western European social democracies are alive and they benefit many people. A radical Separatist Feminist philosophy is only one smaller group, like the anarchists in left-wing politics or dhutanga practitioners among all the monks.

From a feminist point of view we could highlight how people are happy to blame here women for social problems without considering the fact that the majority of politicians and influential people are men, that the nations are led and controlled mostly by men, and even here the members are also mainly men. How come that it's still the woman's fault? Of course, the true sinner is Eve and the Almighty Lord has nothing to do with creating evil...
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Astus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:12 pm

Here is an article on Swedish preschool childcare system: Night nurseries: Sweden's round-the-clock childcare.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Modern Education

Postby LastLegend » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:40 pm

Putting feminism aside for now, the issue that we face today is lack of parenting because both parents hold jobs.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm

LastLegend wrote:...the issue that we face today is lack of parenting because both parents hold jobs.


And why is that the case now?
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Re: Modern Education

Postby pueraeternus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:51 pm

Huseng wrote:
LastLegend wrote:...the issue that we face today is lack of parenting because both parents hold jobs.


And why is that the case now?


I think the reason is because the cost of living in modern society has escalated so much that most middle class families need both parents to work?
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Indrajala » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:56 pm

pueraeternus wrote:I think the reason is because the cost of living in modern society has escalated so much that most middle class families need both parents to work?


Housing prices interestingly increased as women were introduced into the formal work force and married couples had two incomes with which to purchase a home.

Prices are generally determined based on anticipated incomes. So, dual income means a family can spend more money on a home, and prices were adjusted accordingly to maximize profits, or so I've come to understand.

Energy costs and inflation coupled with stagnate wages are also a factor, but only one element.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby pueraeternus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Huseng wrote:
pueraeternus wrote:I think the reason is because the cost of living in modern society has escalated so much that most middle class families need both parents to work?


Housing prices interestingly increased as women were introduced into the formal work force and married couples had two incomes with which to purchase a home.

Prices are generally determined based on anticipated incomes. So, dual income means a family can spend more money on a home, and prices were adjusted accordingly to maximize profits, or so I've come to understand.


Hmm, I wasn't aware of such a correlation. But you might be right.

I still don't get the feminism angle here though. However, I do think that the modern western-influenced parenting model of never ever hitting your kids had a detrimental effect overall. In Chinese culture, one of the worse insults you can get is that you had no proper family upbringing (家教), which is what I noticed increasingly among the younger generation.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Astus » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:57 pm

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Modern Education

Postby pueraeternus » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:46 am

If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

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Re: Modern Education

Postby Punya » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:42 pm

Unless the inner forces of negative emotions are conquered
Strife with outer enemies will never end.
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Re: Modern Education

Postby Punya » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:46 pm

LastLegend wrote:Putting feminism aside for now, the issue that we face today is lack of parenting because both parents hold jobs.



Parenting involves setting boundaries and then applying consequences when boundaries are over-stepped. Working parents are just as capable of applying these boundaries as anyone else. Boundaries do not have to involve harsh discipline to be effective.

Children are not stupid and can adjust to the different boundaries that are in place in different settings eg home, school, grandparents house, etc. It is only the the nuclear family model that assumes parents must be present at all times.
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Re: Health Impact of Celibacy

Postby Sara H » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:09 am

Huseng wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:Most educators I have spoken to in the West are very concerned about the level of education, and what they see as the increasingly bad behaviour of their students, and parents who are too busy working in many cases to help their children.


As we all know teachers can't physically discipline their students. If all you can do is snap at the students or send them out of the class (which might be rewarding for them to sit in the hallway or take a stroll down to the office), then they'll never learn. I'm not advocating hurting anyone, but physical punishment in moderation used to and still does produce well disciplined and focused youth. In retrospect this is something I needed as a boy but never got. I had a really hard time keeping a part time job because I lacked discipline growing up.

One other major reason why Asian youth are better disciplined and more studious than their counterparts in many western countries is the absence of feminism. The family model of having a mother at home plus perhaps a grandparent or two ensures sufficient parenting and care. Even in the absence of marital love, parents are more likely to stick together for the well-being of the children. There are less single parent families. Single parent families are more likely to produce delinquent juveniles (I know why this is from experience).

A lot of the social ills that I grew up with like drugs just don't exist in places like Japan and Taiwan. Teenage pregnancies happen, but not enough to warrant daycare programs in high schools!

They have other problems like bullying, pressure and stress, but nevertheless they do a lot of things right. Their family models are superior to what generally the west presently has, largely because they are free of feminism. Being a full-time mother and caregiver is seen as virtuous and honourable. Being able to discipline your children, physically if necessary, is also a point to their credit. I believe all this produces stable families and consequently stable youth.

After being away from Canada for some years I've come to think Western societies (or at least Canada) really need to actively purge feminism, among other deficient and harmful ideologies, from the social fabric and return to traditional models of family, education and childrearing. The alternative is a whole long list of social ills that accompany broken families and undisciplined youth. Filial piety and general respect for teachers and elders is an important virtue that we simply don't seem to have much of any longer thanks to excessive nanny-like sentiments of intellectuals and feminism.


I agree with a great deal of this.
My problem with feminism, is as Huseng said, not the equal pay for equal work aspects. That to me, is just common sense, and merit based fairness.
For me, my issue with it is the extreme ideology they can espouse, that of being anti-men, anti-boys, and anti-family.
The idea of "independent" women mothers being equal to, or superior to, a two-partner/parent family.

That's just nonsense. Not for the children it isn't.

Women's equal rights, equal pay, equal representation is all a good thing,

Saying that one gender doesn't need the other, or that equality means that going it alone when raising kids is a good idea for the kids, is utter nonsense.

We evolved with two genders, and the need for loving partners to bond to one another for a reason.

Whether you are gay, or straight, kids do better with more than one parent.

Another thing I disagree with, is the increasing trend to view natural male behavior, such as teenage roughhousing, and aggression, as "violence" and "criminal assault".
This has been promoted largely by feminism as legal policies.
If two boys get into a tussle, to settle an argument, it's considered "assault" and they both go to jail nowadays.

In the old days, that's usually just how boys and men settled arguments amongst themselves. They might have a good fight, and then it'd be settled, and they may even pat each other on the back afterwards.

It seems to me like a lot of feminists are trying to make male humans behave like females do: use words and gossip to fight it out and be drama/catfighty/cliquey about it.

That's not how males settle things, and men and boys are naturally a lot more aggressive and have a need for a physical outlet because of testosterone levels. Physical education is also in decline. I have a friend from Norway, who said in the schools there, as a kid, they have P.E. in the morning, which allows the kids to let out all their energy. Then, the kids do very well in class, and can concentrate and have much less behavioral problems.

No Ritalin, no legal action, just natural letting boys and kids in general let their energy out. Kids need to play.

This idea that some feminists think they can "cure" the aggression and "violent tenancies" in men is ridiculous.
It's because they view men and boys natural biological tenancies as "mental disease" which can be counseled and therapied and legal processed into submission.
Because they view these tenancies as the source and cause of all the violence against women.

But human beings are human beings. We have two genders because we are mammals, and as mammals there are biological behavioral differences that cannot be undone simply by Ritalin or therapy or arresting people. Or by telling men and boys they shouldn't hit each other.

Rough play and the occasional fight is just what male mammals do.

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