Marihuana and meditation

[chickenman]

Ganja Sutta

Thus have I heard,

Once the Blessed One was sitting around with a few monks getting baked and he said:

"Guys...Puff, puff, puff... Cough, cough-cough, cough-cough-cough-cough, splutter, COUGH! Whoa, that one really hit the spot! Guys, I was thinking... puff, puff, yeah... hmmmm... I was thinking that... Whoa, yeah... ... ... What was I saying?"

To which Sariputra answered: "Yo, Buddha man, you gonna hang onto that joint all day or what? Pass it on bro, pass it on!"

To which the Blessed One replied:

"Yo, chill Sari man... puff, puff-puff, puff-puff-puff, splutter, cough-cough, cough..."

And all those gathered felt a great attraction to the Dharma and took refuge in the Buddha, his crew and the ganja until it was their turn to toke.

Now how delusive exactly are you to believe that smoking marijuana has any place whatsoever in Buddhist practice? If you can find ONE reference in Sutta, Sutra, Shastra or Tantra for the positive aspects of the use of marijuana in Buddhist meditation practice I will take up pot smoking again. ONE REFERENCE.

Good luck!

great stoner stereotype. quite humorous.

i haven't read every sutta, sutra, shastra & tantra. have you ?
so i couldn't say for sure there is nothing in there about marijuana in particular.
and even if there were, didn't the buddha kind of imply that we should all make up our own minds about alot of these kinds of things?

[chickenman]

one should not get into the habit of requiring a crutch to calm the mind coz what happens when the crutch is not available?

very good point.

[gregkavarnos]

i haven't read every sutta, sutra, shastra & tantra. have you ?
so i couldn't say for sure there is nothing in there about marijuana in particular.
and even if there were, didn't the buddha kind of imply that we should all make up our own minds about alot of these kinds of things?

So your decision to bake and sit is based on your ignorance of the teachings? Now that is a solid basis I must say! Making up your mind "about alot of these kinds of things" should be based on insight not ignorance, my friend. So please excuse me for erring on the side of caution.

[chickenman]

marijuana is not a "hallucinogenic drug"...

Marijuana is classed as a hallucinogen

classified as such by whom? the united states government and thier puppets who run the "war on drugs"???
hogwash! pot doesn't make you see & hear things that aren't really there, like l.s.d. or mushrooms do. pot only makes you more aware of what is actually there. if hallcinogens are a kaleidoscope, pot is a microscope.
but we seem to be getting off topic......

[zenkarma]

My personal experience with pot is that if you can manage to get enough of the active ingredient (thc) into you, in what ever fashion, you will at least see some colors and trails, so i would class it as a mild psychedelic.
As far as meditating while smoking pot, the only time i did it, it was absolutely terrible. Instead of the degree of quiet and focus i was used to, my mind simply raced.
People who think they can meditate effectively after smoking pot are fooling themselves, which is not surprising, most drug use is after all about denial. If you just want to sit around and focus on the feeling of being stoned, you might as well put in a dvd and stretch out on the couch.

And i guess i should add that in my opinion, if you are a regular user of any recreational drug, including alcohol, your mind is likely so clouded that effective meditation may be impossible until you address the issue of your drug dependence.

[pawel]

Greg, I'm sure you understand that psychoactives affect people differently. Just because drugs are boring to you doesn't mean they're boring to others. Look at this artist's self portraits under the influence of a cornucopia of various drugs - http://cultso.com/artist-takes-every-dr ... -each-use/. Boring would be one of the last possible ways I would describe this stuff.

These pictures are sick. And yes, the experience of the overall of it, how they were created, is boredom. This distracted, affected and blindly moving forward mind is boring when seen from a clear and still place. Maybe you wont believe it but this sort of creativity has nothing to do with either clarity nor creativity really. It's a waste.

Also, I don't know if you're familiar with therapeutic use of drawings, pictures that are created these ways maybe could also be dubbed sick, but then there is a guidance and a function in them and in the process, which bring wholesome and positive results for the person. Substances too can be used that way and that is in fact the original use of them in all the different cultures in which it existed. This is still possible today (I met someone who had gone through a therapy of ayavasca himself in a hospital somewhere in South America - a place in which there are shamans and also western therapists).

The recreational use of substances is really abuse and nothing else.

[CrawfordHollow]

My two cents:

I do not smoke herb at all anymore, but I can tell you one thing that weed is good for: entertainment. Thats why music sounds better, food tastes so good, and the Discovery Channel rocks. I think if your using it to "enhance" your meditation or study then you run the risk of using Dharma as a sort of entertainment. This is definately possible and is really quite sad as there is something essential that is being missed. Sorry I really have no time to contribute much to this conversation but I thought I would toss my opinion out there...

Troy

[tomamundsen]

pot doesn't make you see & hear things that aren't really there, like l.s.d. or mushrooms do. pot only makes you more aware of what is actually there. if hallcinogens are a kaleidoscope, pot is a microscope.

Erowid classifies it as a psychedelic, which is a subclass of hallucinogens. Pot has given me completely convincing auditory hallucinations, persian rug-type open eye visuals, and also very very vivid closed eye visuals of cartoon nature. It's definitely a psychedelic. However, the psychedelic properties aren't noticeable during regular use. You only get those kinds of effects when you either have no tolerance or take massive amounts (e.g., oral ingestion (e.g., pot brownies, etc.)).

[tomamundsen]

You're a lawyer Tom?

But seriously, unwholesome in regards to harmful, not in regards to some legalistic definition of the precepts.

Oh. Whenever I see the word "unwholesome" anymore, I think about karma and its fruit. In that sense, I was saying that using intoxicants isn't unwholesome unless you take the 5th precept. By that I mean, you won't get negative karmic retribution for getting drunk or high - like that other thread with the video about people going to hell for drinking. But, since breaking vows is unwholesome, you will get negative karmic retribution for breaking the 5th precept. So long as you don't take a vow against it, it's morally neutral.

Now, in the sense that you're talking about, yes it is harmful.

[chickenman]

one thing i'd like to clear up is that, as a general rule, i don't smoke before meditation. as i stated earlier, i use it only when i have been having trouble in my practice (going through a "slump", so to speak). however, after seriously thinking about some of the posts i've read in this topic, i think it is time to abandon the "crutch". i will need to work myself through the times when i find it hard to calm the busy mind, without the help of the herb. it may make my practice a little harder durring that "rough patch" that comes up once in a while, but i think i will be better served by working harder instead of just lighting up. i am beginning to think i have been "cheating".
i remain "pro-pot" and by no means am i saying i will discontinue occasional use as a way to relax now & then, but i am getting more serious about my practice and my path (hence joining this forum), therefore, i think it is time to take marijuana out of the meditation equation.
i have enjoyed this discussion, and it has been of benefit to me. thanx to all involved.

[Thus-gone]

If you don't think pot is a psychedelic, you need to get some better pot...

[catmoon]

For anyone who believes that being high is somehow special: Have you ever had a thought while high that you felt was so profound that you had to write it down, only to read it back the next day and discover that it was actually rather banal?

Been there done that! I've aso done the reverse, sort of. I've written down deeper insights whie completely sober and when I come back to them a month ater the reaction is "Omg what kind of drugs was I on?"

[Johnny Dangerous]

If you have never experienced hallucinations or illusions when stoned then you aren't that big a stoner.

I have had one of the worst experiences of my life on a concentrated hash oil that I was stupid enough to take on someone's recommendation as pain relief, won't names names but this product is even billed as being "medical" in the more deluded corners of the Medical Marijuana community.

Rather than pain relief I got beams of fire shooting into my being, neon gravestones holwing in the sky, feeling like a part of me was splitting in half etc...It is not hallucinogenic in the same sense Peyote or something is, you can walk around and be somewhat "normal" while all this is happening in your mind but THC can most definitely cause vastly altered perceptions of reality.

Anyway where is the debate here, while the 5th precept applies specifically to what we would call alcohol, it applies here too..you can't make earnest strivings on drugs, to say nothing of addiction itself. And please, yes I know Pot is not technically physically addictive, but in a Buddhist sense I think physical attachment could be seen as the minor part of addiction anyway.

Not trying to condemn..I've had my own issues keeping the fifth precept, alcohol and pot..but let's just call it what it is.

[lobster]

Not trying to condemn..I've had my own issues keeping the fifth precept, alcohol and pot..but let's just call it what it is.

Exactly. Practicing whilst intoxicated may be the best we can offer. Given time our practice ideally will become independent of clouding . . .

[gregkavarnos]

Practicing while intoxicated is not practice. It is intoxication. Unless your practice is sooooo stable that it can override the effects of the intoxication, of course. But then why get intoxicated to practice?

[alpha]

one thing i'd like to clear up is that, as a general rule, i don't smoke before meditation. as i stated earlier, i use it only when i have been having trouble in my practice (going through a "slump", so to speak). however, after seriously thinking about some of the posts i've read in this topic, i think it is time to abandon the "crutch". i will need to work myself through the times when i find it hard to calm the busy mind, without the help of the herb. it may make my practice a little harder durring that "rough patch" that comes up once in a while, but i think i will be better served by working harder instead of just lighting up. i am beginning to think i have been "cheating".
i remain "pro-pot" and by no means am i saying i will discontinue occasional use as a way to relax now & then, but i am getting more serious about my practice and my path (hence joining this forum), therefore, i think it is time to take marijuana out of the meditation equation.
i have enjoyed this discussion, and it has been of benefit to me. thanx to all involved.

If you are serious about practice you should consider quitting pot and smoking alltogether.

Smoking and pot disturb the energy in the body and the channels get blocked.
If they get blocked your practice or whatever you do when you think you practice is not going anywhere since mind is dependent on proper balance in those channels.
Mood swings,very strong emotions(be they negativre or positive),well defined thoutghts is what you get when the energy is disturbed.
Someone who consumes these kind of substances might say that alternating experiences of calmness, well defined thoughts and vividness is a positive process when is actually none other than a sign of severe energy imbalance.

[Zealot]

Everyone's practice is unique. If you sit and listen to what the world around you is telling you, the next step becomes clear. Practice is but the willingness to take the next step on The Middle Way. It does not care about intoxication, your emotions, or what channels are blocked (unless that is your practice).

[gregkavarnos]

Everyone's practice is unique. If you sit and listen to what the world around you is telling you, the next step becomes clear. Practice is but the willingness to take the next step on The Middle Way. It does not care about intoxication, your emotions, or what channels are blocked (unless that is your practice).

Sez who?

[CrawfordHollow]

Not the Buddha. Or any other enlightened master, for that matter. Practice is not about giving into our emotions and addictions and calling it the Middle Way. Man, we can't seem to get over this subject of weed. I guess I'm just as guilty, I did have a slight breakdown here on DW when I relapsed - and a big thanks to all who reached out, especially you Greg. It would be nice if we could just drop this whole pot thing for a while. Zealot is so new to the Dharma, instead of trying to change his views on the subject, lets try and inspire him to do some real practice. I think his intentions are pure and he has a genuine intereset, it would be a shame if he turned away from the Dharma becaue he didn't feel accepted due to his pot use. I have given him some resources on tonglen and shamatha. If anyone else has anything that they think would be useful for him I ask that you please shoot him a PM. Thanks,

Troy

[Zealot]

I'm certainly not trying to encourage drug use. I'm simply stating that practice's only universal quality is working to better yourself and follow the Dharma. You MUST accept who and where you are in life in order to work towards bettering it. Isn't that what practice is all about? Saying that practice MUST fit into this nice little box is nonsense in my opinion. There are a million different practices that all lead down the same path; The Middle Way. You can't say to begin practicing you must first be free of defilement, can you?

I'm sorry, though I have a good understanding of this in my mind (at least I think so), my communication is often flawed. With pure intents we should practice or the fruits of our endeavors will be tainted. Smoking cannabis is a defilement, but I think to someone who loves their herb dearly, telling them that in such a cut and dry tone not only devoids your speech of compassion, it will push them away from this community.

Equamity, my friends!