Ram's Interpretation of the Lotus Sutra

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:13 pm

It is true that more than a few authors have tried to "marry" modern Physics (which is an incomplete theory at best...) and spiritual thought/mysticism. I do not think I am alone however, in seeing that Physics and high philosophy both approach the Dharma.

I believe the Dharma is truth. A communication from the viewpoint of Enlightenment. Therefore, everything that is right and true will fall within the realm of the Dharma. I also think that throughout history, understandings of the Dharma have evolved and augmented previous paradigms. We have a responsibility as Buddhists to examine the teachings from our own personal perspective. Modern sciences and philosophy can do much to help an individual gain a better perspective (at least provisionally) of ideas presented in the Sutras.

A few thoughts of mine if anyone cares-
The Lotus Sutra begins by opening up to "innumerable world systems" and continues throughout from this "cosmic" perspective, and greater. Individuality is left far behind and, indeed, the individuality of Sakyamuni Buddha himself is transcended.
Lotus Sutra is about symbolic expression. This is apparent in the teachings that are given through parable and symbol and, the action of the Sutra. Through human history, our own capacity for symbolic expression has evolved from cave drawings, to communication (speech), culture, Literature, Art and sciences, ultimately to technological advancement.

There is no wrong in trying to see the Lotus Sutra from a modern vantage point. I do believe it is wrong, however, that many have shared their voices here NOT in trying to clarify understandings or to experience the sutra together from our own personal perspectives (modern or otherwise) but, to attack one perspective that is not shared by all. I assume we are all brothers and sisters in the Dharma, a Dharma that is vast and deep. Respect is necessary and should be easy for a practitioner.

Noah
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby plwk » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:22 am

It is true that more than a few authors have tried to "marry" modern Physics (which is an incomplete theory at best...) and spiritual thought/mysticism. I do not think I am alone however, in seeing that Physics and high philosophy both approach the Dharma.
I guess besides terms like sex, women and karma, 'science' is the next most abused and misused term on the long list. Ask any certified and qualified scientist. It serves more of a convenient marketing term for some...
I do believe it is wrong, however, that many have shared their voices here NOT in trying to clarify understandings or to experience the sutra together from our own personal perspectives (modern or otherwise) but, to attack one perspective that is not shared by all.
Agreed but guess what?
If one reads all the way from the Nikayas and Agamas to the Mahayana Sutras, even in the Vinaya Pitaka, there are enough instances that the Buddha Himself not only refuted incompatible ideas and teachings but even went as far as to discipline the Sangha if any one of them goes off track, sometimes using the soft, hard, soft/hard and Noble Silence. So yes, the Buddha was a compassionate yet firm teacher, and not the romantic softie nor an indecisive character that some love to make Him out to be.
The Lotus Sutra itself is not exempt from this trend of refutation and discipline in its 28 chapters. How many warnings are issued for those who try to trample or distort its teachings? There are standards laid down to determine what is Dharma and what is Adharma and not a free for all Woodstock fest. There's always the New Age, hippy and 'swing door' forums for the latter.
I assume we are all brothers and sisters in the Dharma, a Dharma that is vast and deep.
I don't. All kinds of people come on here all the time. Only the sevenfold categories of Disciples are fit to be fall within the context of 'brothers and sisters in the Dharma'.
Respect is necessary and should be easy for a practitioner.
I beg to differ. Common and basic courtesy should be extended to all, Noble or ignoble ones.
Respect on the hand is to be earned and proven, and the Noble Ones come within this sphere.
And who are the Noble Ones within the Buddha Dharma? One's own research should easily reveal that...
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:44 am

Noah wrote:It is true that more than a few authors have tried to "marry" modern Physics (which is an incomplete theory at best...) and spiritual thought/mysticism. I do not think I am alone however, in seeing that Physics and high philosophy both approach the Dharma.
And in some countries a rapist can avoid prison time by marrying their victim. Obviously there are some cases where marriage is not the answer. This is one of them. Buddha maintained that the universe is dependently arisen as a consequence of karma not created from a "One Source". As a consequence of this simple fact it places Mani Lal Bhaumik's view outside of the realm of Dharma, even in direct contradiction to it.
I believe the Dharma is truth. A communication from the viewpoint of Enlightenment. Therefore, everything that is right and true will fall within the realm of the Dharma. I also think that throughout history, understandings of the Dharma have evolved and augmented previous paradigms. We have a responsibility as Buddhists to examine the teachings from our own personal perspective. Modern sciences and philosophy can do much to help an individual gain a better perspective (at least provisionally) of ideas presented in the Sutras.
I agree (to a point) BUT: 1. Dharma is not just theories about truth. Any "truth" that may be posited has to be for the sake of liberation. For example: you may come up with a mathematical formula that can accurately estimate the number of hairs on a pet cat. So what? It may describe a truth, but what does it have to do with liberation from samsara? 2. Interpreting Dharma based on current perspectives is only necessary if what is being described in the teachings is not relevant or "needs" proving. We don't need to interpret just for the sake of bending the Dharma to current belief patterns. And we especially do not need to interpret the teachings just to satisfy our own ego-centredness.
The Lotus Sutra begins by opening up to "innumerable world systems" and continues throughout from this "cosmic" perspective, and greater. Individuality is left far behind and, indeed, the individuality of Sakyamuni Buddha himself is transcended ... I assume we are all brothers and sisters in the Dharma, a Dharma that is vast and deep. Respect is necessary and should be easy for a practitioner.
Your statments are contradictory. You start by lauding the depersonalising (or universal nature) nature of the Lotus Sutra and end by saying that we should all be allowed to personalise it. Want to make up your mind on this matter?
And as plwk said:
plwk wrote:There are standards laid down to determine what is Dharma and what is Adharma and not a free for all Woodstock fest. There's always the New Age, hippy and 'swing door' forums for the latter.
This is a Buddhist forum after all, so you may have to excuse us "Buddhists" for making "Buddhist" critiques of an essentially ADharmic interpretation of a Buddhist teaching.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:36 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
"...the surprising discovery of quantum physics that the primary source of everything in the universe is present in each minutest stitch of the fabric of space of this immensely vast cosmos empowers us to ponder the One Source of all creation. It is not merely a blind faith anymore. This ought to enable us to feel ourselves as an inextricable part of the One Source, which would significantly improve the quality of our lives."
From "Code Name God". Well given that Buddhists do not believe in a creation either from one source or lots of sources. Where exactly in the Lotus Sutra do you believe it states something even remotely similar to Mani Lal Bhaumik's view?
1



Buddha said that that nature of this creation is cause and effect , but where does it say that source of this creation is not one source.

ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:43 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
"...the surprising discovery of quantum physics that the primary source of everything in the universe is present in each minutest stitch of the fabric of space of this immensely vast cosmos empowers us to ponder the One Source of all creation. It is not merely a blind faith anymore. This ought to enable us to feel ourselves as an inextricable part of the One Source, which would significantly improve the quality of our lives."
From "Code Name God". Well given that Buddhists do not believe in a creation either from one source or lots of sources. Where exactly in the Lotus Sutra do you believe it states something even remotely similar to Mani Lal Bhaumik's view?
1



Buddha said that that nature of this creation is cause and effect , but where does it say that source of this creation is not one source. What is Emptiness? Is it not even one source? Bhaumik will not understand "Emptiness". So in his own way he writes one source. You are far far away from understanding on Lotus sutra and you are taking a role of critic. Even if you catch one word mistake in my writing from whole pages I have written, you start critcising. Neither you give alternative explanations nor you are simplifying , but are creating confusions and contradictions and diversions.

ram
Last edited by ram peswani on Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:50 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
"..
This is a gigantic movement in the sky which Buddha controlled forming a galaaxi.
What a crock! It says nothing of the sort in the chapter titled "The Apparitional City"



Read chapter 7 ( parable of Phantom city, Translation by Burton Watson, a project taken by american university for correct translation.

Your writings extract is something else and not to the point.

This whole chapter explains gigantic cosmic movements in 8 directions.

ram


http://www.bdkamerica.org/digital/dBET_ ... a_2007.pdf
How splendid it is to meet the buddhas,
The Great Sages who deliver the world,
Who diligently work to get sentient beings
Out of the hell of the triple world!
The Best of Devas and Humans,
Who has universal wisdom,
Out of compassion for everyone
Opens the gate to immortality
And extensively saves all.
Since olden times, immeasurable kalpas
Have passed away in vain
Without the presence of the Buddha.
In the time before the Bhagavat appears,
The ten directions are in constant darkness.
Those in the three troubled states of being increase
And the asuras also flourish.
The devas decrease all the more,
And when they die
Many of them fall into those troubled states.
Having never heard the teaching from the Buddha,
All of them always behave badly,
And their physical power and wisdom decreases.
Because of their erring deeds
They lose happiness or any notion of it.
Abiding in the teaching of false views
They know nothing of good conduct.
Deprived of the buddhas’ inspiration,
They always fall into the troubled states of being.
After a very long time, the Buddha has now
Appeared as the Eye of the World.
It is out of compassion for sentient beings
That the Buddha appears in the world.
Transcending everything, the Buddha
Has attained complete enlightenment.
We are all extremely happy,
And all the other beings joyfully acclaim
This unprecedented experience.
All our palaces are beautifully adorned
By this ray of light.
We now offer them to the Bhagavat.
Please accept them out of your compassion!
By the universal transference of this merit,
May we and all other beings
Together attain the buddha path!

:namaste:

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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:50 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
"..
This is a gigantic movement in the sky which Buddha controlled forming a galaaxi.
What a crock! It says nothing of the sort in the chapter titled "The Apparitional City"



Read chapter 7 ( parable of Phantom city, Translation by Burton Watson, a project taken by american university for correct translation.

Your writings extract is something else and not to the point.

This whole chapter explains gigantic cosmic movements in 8 directions.

ram


http://www.bdkamerica.org/digital/dBET_ ... a_2007.pdf
How splendid it is to meet the buddhas,
The Great Sages who deliver the world,
Who diligently work to get sentient beings
Out of the hell of the triple world!
The Best of Devas and Humans,
Who has universal wisdom,
Out of compassion for everyone
Opens the gate to immortality
And extensively saves all.
Since olden times, immeasurable kalpas
Have passed away in vain
Without the presence of the Buddha.
In the time before the Bhagavat appears,
The ten directions are in constant darkness.
Those in the three troubled states of being increase
And the asuras also flourish.
The devas decrease all the more,
And when they die
Many of them fall into those troubled states.
Having never heard the teaching from the Buddha,
All of them always behave badly,
And their physical power and wisdom decreases.
Because of their erring deeds
They lose happiness or any notion of it.
Abiding in the teaching of false views
They know nothing of good conduct.
Deprived of the buddhas’ inspiration,
They always fall into the troubled states of being.
After a very long time, the Buddha has now
Appeared as the Eye of the World.
It is out of compassion for sentient beings
That the Buddha appears in the world.
Transcending everything, the Buddha
Has attained complete enlightenment.
We are all extremely happy,
And all the other beings joyfully acclaim
This unprecedented experience.
All our palaces are beautifully adorned
By this ray of light.
We now offer them to the Bhagavat.
Please accept them out of your compassion!
By the universal transference of this merit,
May we and all other beings
Together attain the buddha path!

:namaste:

ram peswani
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:53 am

Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:34 am

Read chapter 7 ( parable of Phantom city, Translation by Burton Watson, a project taken by american university for correct translation.

Your writings extract is something else and not to the point.

This whole chapter explains gigantic cosmic movements in 8 directions.
Cosmic movements in response to the enlightenment of a Buddha. Not the creation of cosmic systems.
How fine, that we may see the Buddhas,sage and venerable ones who save the world,capable of rescuing and releasing living beingsfrom the hell of the threefold world! Venerable among heavenly and human beings, of universal wisdom, you pity and have mercy on the mass of burgeoning creatures, you are capable of opening the gates of sweet dew and broadly saving one and all. Formerly, immeasurable kalpas passed in vain when no Buddha was present.The time had not yet come for the World-Honored Oneto appear, and all in the ten directions were in constant darkness.Those in the three evil paths increased in number and the realm of the asuras flourished; the multitude of heavenly beings was reduced, and many when they died fell into the evil paths. Since no one could attend the Buddha and hear the Law, constantly people followed ways that were not good and their physical strength and wisdom all diminished and declined. Because of the sinful deeds they had done,they lost all delight or the thought of delight. They rested in heretical doctrinesand had no knowledge of good customs or rules. Unable to be converted by the Buddha, constantly they fell into the evil paths. But now you, the Buddha, who will be the eye of the world, after this long time have at last come forth. In order to bring pity and comfort to living beings you have appeared in the world. You have transcended the world to gain correct enlightenment; we are filled with delight and admiration. We and all others in the assembly rejoice, delighting in what we have never known before. Our palaces because they receive your light are wonderfully adorned. Now we present them to the World-Honored One, hoping he will have pity and accept them. We beg that the merit gained through these gifts may be spread far and wide to everyone,so that we and other living beings all together may attain the Buddha way."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52198055/The- ... on#page=88
Anyway I am not here to discuss subtle nuances in translation (since there is difference in meaning) but to ask you to explain how you reconcile creation with dependent origination. The Louts Sutra does not expouind it and the Buddha didn't/couldn't do it, so how can you?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:[quote]Read chapter 7 ( parable of Phantom city, Translation by Burton Watson, a project taken by american university for correct translation.

Your writings extract is something else and not to the point.

This whole chapter explains gigantic cosmic movements in 8 directions.
Cosmic movements in response to the enlightenment of a Buddha. Not the creation of cosmic systems.
How fine, that we may see the Buddhas,sage and venerable ones who save the world,capable of rescuing and releasing living beingsfrom the hell of the threefold world! Venerable among heavenly and human beings, of universal wisdom, you pity and have mercy on the mass of burgeoning creatures, you are capable of opening the gates of sweet dew and broadly saving one and all. Formerly, immeasurable kalpas passed in vain when no Buddha was present.The time had not yet come for the World-Honored Oneto appear, and all in the ten directions were in constant darkness.Those in the three evil paths increased in number and the realm of the asuras flourished; the multitude of heavenly beings was reduced, and many when they died fell into the evil paths. Since no one could attend the Buddha and hear the Law, constantly people followed ways that were not good and their physical strength and wisdom all diminished and declined. Because of the sinful deeds they had done,they lost all delight or the thought of delight. They rested in heretical doctrinesand had no knowledge of good customs or rules. Unable to be converted by the Buddha, constantly they fell into the evil paths. But now you, the Buddha, who will be the eye of the world, after this long time have at last come forth. In order to bring pity and comfort to living beings you have appeared in the world. You have transcended the world to gain correct enlightenment; we are filled with delight and admiration. We and all others in the assembly rejoice, delighting in what we have never known before. Our palaces because they receive your light are wonderfully adorned. Now we present them to the World-Honored One, hoping he will have pity and accept them. We beg that the merit gained through these gifts may be spread far and wide to everyone,so that we and other living beings all together may attain the Buddha way."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52198055/The- ... on#page=88
Anyway I am not here to discuss subtle nuances in translation (since there is difference in meaning) but to ask you to explain how you reconcile creation with dependent origination. The Louts Sutra does not expouind it and the Buddha didn't/couldn't do it, so how can you?
:namaste:[/quote]




Chapter 7 pages 117 to 141 is the history of Buddha Great Universal Wisdom king in 15 pages describes the formation of our galaxi .16 Buddha sons, 10 directions and billions of Brahamas take part in it . Lights in darkest corners in every directions. etc. The palaces of Brahma kings have a brilliance. GUWK is also being referred to as 2 legged being. No of Brahma in each of ten directions amount to five hundred thousand million in number.Guatam Buddha himself took part as one of the 16 sons in that formation.
Read this and not above paragraph and offer a better alternative suggestion and I will go over your suggestion. If your suggestion is better, I shall be the happiest person. In fact for last 10 years I have been seeking a better answer. So oblige me.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:04 pm

ram peswani wrote:Chapter 7 pages 117 to 141 is the history of Buddha Great Universal Wisdom king in 15 pages describes the formation of our galaxi .16 Buddha sons, 10 directions and billions of Brahamas take part in it...Read this and not above paragraph and offer a better alternative suggestion and I will go over your suggestion. If your suggestion is better, I shall be the happiest person. In fact for last 10 years I have been seeking a better answer. So oblige me.
No it doesn't. It describes the immeasurable light produced during the enlightenment of a Buddha and how this light travels and penetrates all world systems, thus causing sentient beings (in this case gods and chakravartins) to seek out the source of the light (ie the source of enlightenment), receive Dharma teachings from the Buddha and become members of the Sangha.
Our palaces have a brilliance never known in the past.What is the cause of this? Each of us seeks an answer. Is it because of the birth of some heavenly being of great virtue,or because the Buddha has appeared in this world that this great light shines everywhere in the ten directions?
It is quite clear here that the palaces were not created by the Buddha, they were illumined by him.
"When the Buddha Great Universal Wisdom Excellence attained anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, five hundred ten thousand million Buddha worlds in each of the ten directions trembled and shook in six different ways. The dark and secluded places within those lands, where the light of the sun and moon is never able to penetrate, were able to see one another, and they all exclaimed, saying, 'How is it thatliving beings have suddenly come into existence in this place?
The beings were not created by the light of the Buddha, they were made obvious. It is like when a person is so used to eating meat that it takes somebody to point out that the meat is actually the flesh of a sentient being. After they have understood this they no longer see meat, but instead see the flesh of a dead sentient being.
At that time the Brahma kings of five hundred ten thousand million lands, accompanied by their palaces, each king taking his outer robe and filling it with heavenly flowers, journeyed together to the western region to observe the signs there. They saw the Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Thus Come One in the place of practice, seated on a lion seat underneath a bodhi tree, with heavenly beings, dragon kings, gandharvas, kimnaras,mahoragas, human, and nonhuman beings surrounding him and paying reverence. And they saw the sixteen princes entreating the Buddha to turn the wheel of the Law.
The meaning of this passage is pretty clear wouldn't you say? I see no evidence of cosmogenesis here.
World hero, most honored of two-legged beings,we beg you to expound the Law, Through the power of your great mercy and compassion,save living beings in their suffering and anguish!
No creation story here either. Just a request for Dharma.

Maybe this is the lesson that exists in the Lotus Sutra for you: track down a source of infinite light (a teacher), offer them your riches (palace) and request them to turn the Wheel of Dharma for you so that you may finally get over your obsessive attachment to the fanciful idea that the Lotus Sutra is a creation fable (mirrored in Mani Lal Bhaumik's equally fanciful theory of a Single Source of creation).
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:56 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:[quote="ram peswani"]Chapter 7 pages 117 to 141 is the history of Buddha Great Universal Wisdom king in 15 pages describes the formation of our galaxi .16 Buddha sons, 10 directions and billions of Brahamas take part in it...Read this and not above paragraph and offer a better alternative suggestion and I will go over your suggestion. If your suggestion is better, I shall be the happiest person. In fact for last 10 years I have been seeking a better answer. So oblige me.
No it doesn't. It describes the immeasurable light produced during the enlightenment of a Buddha and how this light travels and penetrates all world systems, thus causing sentient beings (in this case gods and chakravartins) to seek out the source of the light (ie the source of enlightenment), receive Dharma teachings from the Buddha and become members of the Sangha.
Our palaces have a brilliance never known in the past.What is the cause of this? Each of us seeks an answer. Is it because of the birth of some heavenly being of great virtue,or because the Buddha has appeared in this world that this great light shines everywhere in the ten directions?
It is quite clear here that the palaces were not created by the Buddha, they were illumined by him.
"When the Buddha Great Universal Wisdom Excellence attained anuttara-samyak-sambodhi, five hundred ten thousand million Buddha worlds in each of the ten directions trembled and shook in six different ways. The dark and secluded places within those lands, where the light of the sun and moon is never able to penetrate, were able to see one another, and they all exclaimed, saying, 'How is it thatliving beings have suddenly come into existence in this place?
The beings were not created by the light of the Buddha, they were made obvious. It is like when a person is so used to eating meat that it takes somebody to point out that the meat is actually the flesh of a sentient being. After they have understood this they no longer see meat, but instead see the flesh of a dead sentient being.
At that time the Brahma kings of five hundred ten thousand million lands, accompanied by their palaces, each king taking his outer robe and filling it with heavenly flowers, journeyed together to the western region to observe the signs there. They saw the Great Universal Wisdom Excellence Thus Come One in the place of practice, seated on a lion seat underneath a bodhi tree, with heavenly beings, dragon kings, gandharvas, kimnaras,mahoragas, human, and nonhuman beings surrounding him and paying reverence. And they saw the sixteen princes entreating the Buddha to turn the wheel of the Law.
The meaning of this passage is pretty clear wouldn't you say? I see no evidence of cosmogenesis here.
World hero, most honored of two-legged beings,we beg you to expound the Law, Through the power of your great mercy and compassion,save living beings in their suffering and anguish!
No creation story here either. Just a request for Dharma.

Maybe this is the lesson that exists in the Lotus Sutra for you: track down a source of infinite light (a teacher), offer them your riches (palace) and request them to turn the Wheel of Dharma for you so that you may finally get over your obsessive attachment to the fanciful idea that the Lotus Sutra is a creation fable (mirrored in Mani Lal Bhaumik's equally fanciful theory of a Single Source of creation).
:namaste:[/quote]





Now i will read you what the scientists / lotus sutra say

S....Two globes of dark patches appeared from nowhere.
L....No where is the place where GUWK is located and he gives turning the Dharma wheel.(Ram wrote ... He is sending
out cosmic patches Shiva and Shakti (cosmic energy 1 & 2).

S.....The two globes throw rays of lights crisscrossing each other forming a carpet sort of set up.
L....GUWK is sending out a highly intelligent information based on his wisdom to fix the position of stars in the galaxi
from his seat that is inside the black hole or is invisible.

S....Stars start appearing at the junction of the crisscrossed lights.
L....Brahma kings along with their palaces (suns) move towards GUKW to pay their respect and locate themselves in a
pattern fixed by GUKW thus forming a world system.

Ram's explanation
When a powerful sentient sits in awareness meditaion. He transcends cosmic energies to higher level. This stops outflows and creates vaccume to allow inflows. This vaccume attracts stars which are nearby. This is a practical fact if some one does awareness meditation, he can feel this happening around him. It is mentioned that GUKW is a two legged being.
Even in earlier chapter Guatam refers to Buddhas as two legged beings.
The human mind is highly evolved. And he has power to manipulate outer invisible forces to fulfill his desires. Buddhas use their awareness to create better universes, galaxis , milky ways and also see to it that their creation is free from death old age and misery. Buddha also describes in details various world systems already created and to be created in future.
A simple human mind like of you and me can create better life which gives health, happiness and peace and luxuries if he knows how to do awareness meditation. He can go on growing cosmically to the extent that he can become a Buddha.

Now I suggest you read whole of lotus sutra carefully and the things will get more interesting. And prehaps together we can create a still better understanding to what you earlier suggested for me.

ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:55 pm

What a load of baloney! Pure and utter fiction.

Either post the bits where it says this in the Lotus Sutra or admit you are just making it up. And don't give any vague and irrelevant references, the page numbers you quoted above (117-141) were not even in Chapter 7 of the electronic version of the Sutra.

Cut and paste the references for your deluded ideas and cut the hogwash please.

And to get things straight: I am NOT interested in Rams interpretation, I am interested in the material within the Lotus Sutra that Ram feels justify his :alien: interpretation.
:namaste:
PS I have read the Lotus Sutra a number of times (and different translations of it) and none of it says anything remotely similar to what you say (except the "all of us being capable of reaching enlightenment" bit).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:16 pm

ram never has speculated about UFO's on this thread. It is weird that there is this much resistance to see the Lotus Sutra in terms of cosmic evolution. The Sutra itself is the unfolding cosmic process of Enlightenment energy- flowering into fullness with the appearance of a Buddha in the world. I hoped to gain a perspective along with others of this action, this symbolism, this process. There seems to be no desire here except to disagree.
We have been approaching the perspective of the Lotus Sutra from our own individual perspectives now.
It is all happening right now :)
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:51 am

gregkavarnos wrote:What a load of baloney! Pure and utter fiction.

Either post the bits where it says this in the Lotus Sutra or admit you are just making it up. And don't give any vague and irrelevant references, the page numbers you quoted above (117-141) were not even in Chapter 7 of the electronic version of the Sutra.

Cut and paste the references for your deluded ideas and cut the hogwash please.

And to get things straight: I am NOT interested in Rams interpretation, I am interested in the material within the Lotus Sutra that Ram feels justify his :alien: interpretation.
:namaste:
PS I have read the Lotus Sutra a number of times (and different translations of it) and none of it says anything remotely similar to what you say (except the "all of us being capable of reaching enlightenment" bit).




Agreed, Ram is not relevent, he knows he is changing.

On Lotus sutra we seem to have moved a bit.We agree or we are in thinking mode on following three points.

1. Lotus sutra is the ultimate sutra of Guatam Buddha.
2. Lotus sutra revolves around gigantic cosmic evolution on stars, suns and their counterparts Brhama kings.
3. Females are not allowed to enter Buddhahood directly, but have to change to become males which is possible.

Lotus sutra is full of many hidden gems, do you want to move to something more on Lotus sutra.
Ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:48 am

ram peswani wrote:On Lotus sutra we seem to have moved a bit.We agree or we are in thinking mode on following three points.
1. Lotus sutra is the ultimate sutra of Guatam Buddha.
2. Lotus sutra revolves around gigantic cosmic evolution on stars, suns and their counterparts Brhama kings.
3. Females are not allowed to enter Buddhahood directly, but have to change to become males which is possible.
Let's get something straight:
1. I do not agree with any of these points.
2. Your failure to provide references from within the Lotus Sutra to sucessfully support any of your theories leads me to the conclusion that your theory is a load of unsubstantiated rubbish and that you (feebly) attempt to use the uncontested legitimacy of the Lotus Sutra in a failed undertaking to seek to give credence to your fantasy. You do a disservice to the teaching and merely make a laughing stock of yourself.
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:07 pm

Noah wrote:ram never has speculated about UFO's on this thread. It is weird that there is this much resistance to see the Lotus Sutra in terms of cosmic evolution. The Sutra itself is the unfolding cosmic process of Enlightenment energy- flowering into fullness with the appearance of a Buddha in the world. I hoped to gain a perspective along with others of this action, this symbolism, this process. There seems to be no desire here except to disagree.
We have been approaching the perspective of the Lotus Sutra from our own individual perspectives now.
Dear Noah, you seem like an intelligent and reasonable person, albeit enarmoured with ram peswanis interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, so let me ask you this: Where in the Lotus Sutra does it say anything that supports these statments?
S....Two globes of dark patches appeared from nowhere.
L....No where is the place where GUWK is located and he gives turning the Dharma wheel.(Ram wrote ... He is sending
out cosmic patches Shiva and Shakti (cosmic energy 1 & 2).

S.....The two globes throw rays of lights crisscrossing each other forming a carpet sort of set up.
L....GUWK is sending out a highly intelligent information based on his wisdom to fix the position of stars in the galaxi
from his seat that is inside the black hole or is invisible.

S....Stars start appearing at the junction of the crisscrossed lights.
L....Brahma kings along with their palaces (suns) move towards GUKW to pay their respect and locate themselves in a
pattern fixed by GUKW thus forming a world system
.
I can grant you that with a generous quantity of imagination (and a small dose of hallucinogenic substances) one may somehow arrive at the conclusion in the italicised bit, but the rest of it?

You see, it's not a matter of anything that sounds nice is Dharma, nor that everything based on personal opinion or experience is not Dharma, but one must be able to show that what they are expressing is Dharma. And we all have the right to ask others to prove that it is Dharma. Buddhism is not an anything-goes-feel-good-relativist philosophy.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:53 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Noah wrote:ram never has speculated about UFO's on this thread. It is weird that there is this much resistance to see the Lotus Sutra in terms of cosmic evolution. The Sutra itself is the unfolding cosmic process of Enlightenment energy- flowering into fullness with the appearance of a Buddha in the world. I hoped to gain a perspective along with others of this action, this symbolism, this process. There seems to be no desire here except to disagree.
We have been approaching the perspective of the Lotus Sutra from our own individual perspectives now.
Dear Noah, you seem like an intelligent and reasonable person, albeit enarmoured with ram peswanis interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, so let me ask you this: Where in the Lotus Sutra does it say anything that supports these statments?
S....Two globes of dark patches appeared from nowhere.
L....No where is the place where GUWK is located and he gives turning the Dharma wheel.(Ram wrote ... He is sending
out cosmic patches Shiva and Shakti (cosmic energy 1 & 2).

S.....The two globes throw rays of lights crisscrossing each other forming a carpet sort of set up.
L....GUWK is sending out a highly intelligent information based on his wisdom to fix the position of stars in the galaxi
from his seat that is inside the black hole or is invisible.

S....Stars start appearing at the junction of the crisscrossed lights.
L....Brahma kings along with their palaces (suns) move towards GUKW to pay their respect and locate themselves in a
pattern fixed by GUKW thus forming a world system
.
I can grant you that with a generous quantity of imagination (and a small dose of hallucinogenic substances) one may somehow arrive at the conclusion in the italicised bit, but the rest of it?

You see, it's not a matter of anything that sounds nice is Dharma, nor that everything based on personal opinion or experience is not Dharma, but one must be able to show that what they are expressing is Dharma. And we all have the right to ask others to prove that it is Dharma. Buddhism is not an anything-goes-feel-good-relativist philosophy.
:namaste:




Read about two globes as well as crisscross patches in my earlier mail. Refrence is in Latest scientific articles that have come in Times of India.
These are not my imaginations. A proper method , tools are also given in "Code name god". I do not have the facility to store these articles in some files. Neither i need them for the like of you. Nor i have the method to copy and paste in this article.
If you do not want to hear,and then search for their authencity It is your problem. Neither your condemning my articles is going to change the truth. The two globes and criss cross patches which came out of black hole at the beginning of our galaxi can still be seen. As the science has advanced to go in the past. Read "code name God". You will be surprised at names of scientists who stand by these discoveries.
ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:42 am

I don't give a shit about what it says in "Code Name God". I don't care about which scientists lend their support to this theory. I am here to discuss the Lotus Sutra. You say that the findings in this book are supported by the Lotus Sutra and I have asked you repeatedly to quote passages that support your theory. You have not done so. This (logically) leads me to believe that they are not related in any way whatsoever, except in your overactive imagination.

Now the theory in "Cod Name God" may be 100% true, I am not denying this, but this thread is about the Lotus Sutra, not the book.

Repeating the same invalid statements endlessly does not constitute validity or proof. Personal opinion does not constitute fact.

Your stubborn insistence regarding the irrelevance of your statements is evidence of your inability to admit the obvious (ie the lack of relation between the Lotus Sutra and Code Name God). I can do nothing more here.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 am

Hinayana (small vehicle) / Mahayana (greater vehicle)

Hina means small
Yana means vehicle
Maha means large or greater

Guatam Budh SHARPLY divided these two paths.
For the first 20 years he taught only Hinayana and HID away the path of
Mahayana from everyone else.

He started the path of Mahayana at Eagle Peak in India for 1200 monks only.
Infact he had invited 12000 monks at Eagle Peak out of lakhs of monk disciples
who were following his path.

He rejected 10800 monks at Eagle Peak after certain studies.

The reason for this is that the path of Hinayana suddenly takes a U-turn to lead to
the path of Mahayana.

And the point of U-turn is very very important.

A TRUE "NO SELF" stage is this point.

The path of Hinayana is of OUTFLOWS. The Body (yana) vehicle throw out the
desires and emotions. These desires and emotions are an unnecessary load on
the yana and slow it down.

The path of Mahayana is of receiving INFLOWS from every where around. The
inflows of desires and emotions are then purified thro Hinayana Wisdom and
added to the yana. In this way we grow the size of yana. This is the path of Maha-
yana or greater vehicle.

Material wealth cannot be carried thro DEATH in this yana.
But the size of yana is permanent addition and can be carried to next birth.
Your prosperity, luck, servants, followers, birth situation: all these depend on the
size of your yana.

"No Self" stage is a stafe beyond the stage of Arhat.
An Arhat goes to Moksh (freedom from rebirth) because he has not TRUELY
reached No self stage. In him there is a hidden Self which desires for Moksh.

A mahayanist goes thro this stage of Self and No self alternately deliberated to
grow this vehicle. In this way he helps the existence as this greater vehicle can
load more life and pass on the Wisdom, Knowledge by being an example
themselves.

Buddha...A vehicle has to grow to a certain large state to be called Buddha.
Existence as a whole is changing ( moving) very fast and the Buddha
Vehicle has to reach this speed of moving.
Nirvan ... Is next higher stage where the Yana cannnot grow further due to
matching in speed of existence. The Inflows have stopped and hence the
growing of Buddha yana has stopped. The alternate path of Self and
No-Self does not occur any more. The Buddha has gone to complete
rest beyond Time and Space. Time and Space are the creation of the
motion of Existence.
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Re: Ram's Interpretation of the Lotus Sutra

Postby Andrew108 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:20 am

There is just the realization of dharmata. No size differences. No path differences. Realize dharmata and then tell me all about the differences between the yanas.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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