Ram's Interpretation of the Lotus Sutra

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Ram's Interpretation of the Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:25 am

Doctor Who wrote:As a person that used to practice this Sutra and believed like Nichiren did that it was openly taught by the Buddha I have a question .

Laura posted:
The tradition in Mahayana states that the Lotus Sutra was written down at the time of the Buddha and stored for five hundred years in the realm of the dragons (or Nagas). After this, they were reintroduced into the human realm at the time of the Fourth Buddhist Council in Kashmir


what possibly changed in the human realm that allowed for this to now be seen in the human realm.

seriously, i honestly don't see anything in any history of the human race that shows some change from 2500 years ago and 2000 years ago.

I'm seriously questioning this whole thing.
I practiced Buddhism in different forms from age 15 to well into my 40's.

the lotus sutra from 20 till in my forties.

I need to know this stuff.
What criteria are the masters claiming changed in the human realm for the dragon people to have decided to let us read this stuff.





Lotus sutra describes progress of universe evolution.
Starting point is Suniata.
End point is Ever Expanding Buddhahood.

Human being understand things only thro their physical senses.
Today Physical science has advanced extensivily and is able to see the Progress and evolution of
the universe thro various scientific instruments. (earlier i suggested "code name God" and "cosmic
detectve" two books authored by "Mani Bhuamik")
Human beings may not understand all the scientific findings but they believe in them.

From my angle these two books describe Lotus Sutra almost 50%.
Further questions on these findings will clear human mind of all the doubts of Lotus Sutra.
And for me since last 2000 years time has been making this possible.

Ram
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Re: Chapter 4 Faith Discernment- The Sons Return

Postby ram peswani » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:23 am

[quote="Noah"]. The son is us, the separated identity.


just another opinion......

All of us cannot be Buddha sons.
Only those of us who have fulfilled two following conditions can become sons of Buddha.

1. One is an arhat and is in presence of Buddha.
2. One accepts the Lotus Sutra in His presence and actually receives a rare gift of a vehicle.

If one reads chapter 5 (the parable of the medicinal herbs)..It writes

Bhoddisattvas are like tall trees who receive highest rain

Bhudha sons are like medium trees.....

humans, heavenly beings, wheel turning kings,shakara, Brahama etc are inferior herbs (not even small trees) and
receive smallest rain.

Buddha son after receiving the prophecy or Gem or vehicle ( what ever you call), starts growing in the era of Buddha who
gave him the prophesy.

It is possible for him to forget this if Buddha of that particular era goes to Nirvana.

And due to subsequent births and being in possession of the vehicle , he accumulates lot of dirt and negativities, and he does it at faster rate.
Yet he is a Buddha son.

In the era of next Buddha, he again corrects his course and moves faster towards Buddhahood while receiving help from this new Buddha as per this parable.

My personal experience makes me convinced on what i have written. I may be wrong and you may help correct my thinking.
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Re: Chapter 5 Parable of the Herbs

Postby ram peswani » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:57 am

[quote="Noah"]Thanks ram! I think you have your own understanding of this chapter and it is wonderful of you to share it. I will go through it from my understanding and you will see how (perhaps) we differ on some points.
The Buddha says to Maha-Kasyapa that it is truth how he has explained the teaching and its meaning. Here the Buddha tells another parable, one to deepen the understanding of the disciples. The Buddha likens himself to a raincloud and the beings of the world to the various trees, plants and herbs. It is important to know here that the rain is poured down EQUALLY upon all at the same time. There is no discrimination in the teaching. This is apparent in the world today, when virtually anyone who wants has access to any teaching he/she desires, no matter how esoteric the teaching. The fact is, many will not understand the meaning of specific teachings but, that cannot be helped. The rain pours on all equally. The difference is in the types of plants and the amount of rain they need to develop. They all get their fill and develop fully in the rain of the Dharma.

[i]
Buddha is all knowing. His each and every word is absolute. Highest grown is Bhoddisatva, next is Buddha son, Pratyekabuddha, transcendental powered saints, wheel turning Kings, Brhama and human beings, are grown less and less.
Budha son gets a faster vehicle. While on the path of growth Buddha son is at much lower level of a human being initially when he receives the prophesy. Take the case of Sariputta. He is a mere human being when he received the prophesy or faster vehicle. He has to grow to become king, saint, Brahma in serial order or even bypass some stages with the help of this vehicle. Meanwhile Guatam Buddha has entered Nirvana (assumption). Sariputta without guidence of Guatam buddha will use the faster vehicle as per his Wisdom ( which is not yet grown fully). He can do big mistakes and gets mired up in dangerous conditions till he is rescued by next Buddha.



In practice, the Buddha uses tactful methods to preach the law to all beings according to their capacity. At the end of the explanation of the Parable of the Herbs, the Buddha makes known that the true nature of all (Buddha-nature) cannot be known by anyone except Buddhas. The fact is ALL practitioners are on the Bodhisattva path because that is the only true path.
This parable is deep and fundamental to the text. After the first 2 parables told, the Buddha likens the spiritual path not only as leaving suffering and dangerous conditions (burning house) or, as gaining something precious and wonderful (Son's Return) but, as a process of personal growth. The only positive effect we can gain from the nourishment of the Dharma is to grow as our individual capacity permits. The path is not a "leaving," it is not a "journey" or "return," either. In fact, in this parable, it is characterized as an internal process of growth that everyone, regardless of label, takes part in. Truly, growing as individuals is the nature of all human beings, Buddhahood the highest goal.


Process is of course not leaving but it is journey towards Budhahood and their can be returns in the journey.
ram
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Re: Chapter 5 Parable of the Herbs

Postby ram peswani » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:28 am

[quote="Noah"]Thanks ram! I think you have your own understanding of this chapter and it is wonderful of you to share it. I will go through it from my understanding and you will see how (perhaps) we differ on some points.



I think that this prophesy that Guatam Bhudda bestows; increases one's speed of karma fruit.
Our intensity of awareness grows with this prophesy .
And our desires get fulfilled faster(cause). This makes Karma intense (effect)

Faster play of karma makes rewards and punishments faster and the result is faster growth of Wisdom.
And Wisdom is the journey of Bhoddisattvas and Bhuddha sons.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:18 am

ram- great bro! Are you using the term "Buddha Son's" to refer to disciples that have not yet (or only provisionally) taken up the Bodhisattva vehicle?
Yes! That is why I think these first parables are so essential to the Sutra overall- this is pointing out WHY the Bodhisattva career is the true path. To get to this point in discussion, I believe the ideas need to be taken in turn, or else, the Sutra and it's expounding are the Buddha's own words: "profound, and hard to know..." The fact that IT(the Bodhisattva Path, the One Vehicle, Ekayana) is the ONLY true, deepest expression of the Dharma is understood in this part of the text in terms of the disciple.
The reason for my feeling behind the merit of these parables and true understanding of their meaning, is here- Enlightenment itself is shown as process. Void of individuality. Working for the sake of others, by choice from the very start, because we KNOW that there is no self, we embark on the only true path and help others to be good and see the Dharma as well. In this way we contribute to the full cosmic process of Enlightenment and the appearance of future Buddhas. We, as far as we take part in this process (practice), are part and parcel of that Buddha to come, in so far as the idea that we will be in close proximity to a future Buddha due to our positive karmic effects.
Since they embark on the journey so early on the path, the karma of the disciples (no doubt!) has a broader opportunity and danger of backsliding on the path. Still seeking the Dharma, still a heart that knows the Bodhisattva Ideal, practicing in the mire of samsara for the sake of others, lovely.

rory- yes! Thanks bro! :) Clearly, from the words of the Sutra, ALL possess Buddha-nature. The Bodhisattvas Mahasattvas are here now- in process and dependent on their capacity, the fact of the Dharma's propagation is testament to their ongoing influence.
It is all happening right now :)
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:53 am

[quote="Noah"]Very great, Rory. You seem like a true spiritual friend to all.
I love the Lotus Sutra but, I do not hold is above other Buddhist Sutras.




It is too early comment.
Why has Buddha given names like "Light bright/ light virtue etc " to various buddhas?
What are "life span, correct law, counterfeit law" indicating and why and how are they varying in various prophesies?
Why is Purna (chapter 8) only a stream enterer and yet his creation is going to be fantastic, though Guatam does not bestow prophesy on him?
Why Anand who started on this path of Buddhahood along with Guatam Buddha is still a layman ?
Why still Anand's universe is going to exist for very long time compared to others?
Why does Guatam Buddha extol Life span of Buddha (chapter 16)?
What miracle is this Treasure tower (chapter 11)?
What is this Emerging from earth (chapter 15)?

There are more than 100 questions that arise in the mind when we meditate on Lotus sutra.

And what a beautiful picture the answers make as a whole?

Long time back I had run thro Diomond, Vimalkirti, Heart and other Sutras.
but Lotus sutra made me glue on it and i know that It has enough material for me to survive even Purna" s universe.

ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:09 am

ram- The Lotus Sutra is a deeply profound teaching, capable of (and perhaps it's sole purpose) awakening the heart of the follower. Through the application of perfect wisdom as an "understood" the complete perfection of compassionate practice is fully expounded. The highest ideal and the true Way (vehicle) of all Buddhas. The Lotus Sutra may be the "deepest teaching" but, I would be less capable of "feeling" the Lotus if I had not studied the Diamond, Golden Light, Platform, commentaries on sunyata and dependent co-origination. Holding one Sutra above another is a personal choice and I may be of the mind that full comprehension of the Lotus Sutra is the highest spiritual Ideal to which one can aspire but, in understanding fully, the words of the text fall away.
What are some of the ideas or insights do you have when the questions you pose arise in your meditation?
Thank you bro! A "beautiful picture" YES! Beauty is magnified many times over, inconceivable is the splendor of Buddhahood described.

Noah
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby rory » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:33 am

Dear Ram and Noah;
Ram you are right the sutra contains everything we need:

Shakyamuni Buddha taught the Lotus Sutra for 8 years until his death when he preached the Nirvana Sutra (which supports the Lotus Sutra). The Lotus Sutra explicitly states in the text
Lotus Sutra
I forthrightly abandon expedience and only preach the Supreme Way.” (“Chapter of Expedience” 2 (T.9.10a))
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus2.htm

The Sutras you mention are prior to the Lotus Sutra and expedient teachings. Tthe Buddha Shakyamuni states he abandons them and preaches the One Vehicle.The Buddha Shakyamuni, the Eternal Buddha directs us to abandon these prior teachings:

“Chapter of the Parable” (T.9.16a), “Only rejoicing to receive and keep the Great Vehicle Sutra Canon, not even receiving one verse of other Sutras”;
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... lotus3.htm

So no, all the sutras are not equal. The Lotus Sutra, is called by followers of Mahayana 'the King of Sutras' and the sutra itself instructs us to abandon previous ones. So you can follow the Sutra or do as you please. But it is the deep great last teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha.
gassho
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:35 am

Noah wrote:ram-
What are some of the ideas or insights do you have when the questions you pose arise in your meditation?
Thank you bro! A "beautiful picture" YES! Beauty is magnified many times over, inconceivable is the splendor of Buddhahood described.

Noah



I am bursting out to express my self on Lotus sutra. But I am a very bad teacher or Lotus sutra is very difficult and heavy for others to enjoy or understand. To me it all came in meditation. So I do not know how to express myself. Last time I tried to express myself on this site,; I hurt many readers. I went too fast. I lost my balance due to extreme fascination with the sutra.
I need HELP to express myself and open up this sutra.

Lotus sutra is scientific fact. It describes the "cosmic journey" of evolution (Immeasurable meanings) from Suniata to Buddhahood. it is not a fiction.

ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:30 am

Yessir, I understand. I think the best way is slowly through the Sutra then, taking it as it comes and trying to point out the specific insights revealed by each piece/story. We will eventually get to a point where, in the deep unfolding of the Lotus Stura itself, we can write a deeper post showing one "vein" or theme that illustrates what we are trying to get to. if we make posts explaining our understanding and meanings of the action of the Sutra, there will be sufficient context within the thread for support.

We can all help each other to express the ideas we are trying to communicate. I can suggest to you- try to express the individual aspects of the teaching that lead to the full understanding. One at a time. The parable of Nirvana as "Magic City" is the next part I will do a post on and try to express my understanding. I think it would be wonderful to experience the majesty and infinity of the Sutra with a few fellow lovers of the Dharma :D
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:53 am

ram peswani wrote:
Noah wrote:ram-
What are some of the ideas or insights do you have when the questions you pose arise in your meditation?
Thank you bro! A "beautiful picture" YES! Beauty is magnified many times over, inconceivable is the splendor of Buddhahood described.

Noah




Lotus sutra is scientific fact. It describes the "cosmic journey" of evolution (Immeasurable meanings) from Suniata to Buddhahood. it is not a fiction.

ram


Ram tries again because of strong compassion and practical wisdom. I shall expand the above sentence and explain "Immeasurable Meanings".

Suniata is like sea. In sea fumes of water and other elements arise, interact and fall back in the sea thro various routes.
In Suniata Ego, time, space,light cosmic energies of two types arise.Along with Suniata these are 7 factors.
There is an interaction among them.
And Immeasurable variety of means (wrongly translated methods) of combinations arise.
This is what we call cosmic evolution.
All physical universe, life, sentients, heavenly and lower world are the products which arise.


But like in the sea of water all these are bound to fall back to Suniata. Nothing survives.
Evolution brought out complicated and advanced life as it came down to physical world in the form of human beings as well.
But even arhats (advanced human beings} will go back to suniata losing all the wisdom, knowledge, memory etc. on the way.

This gets complicated now. One of highly advanced soul (above physical world) thought out a plan of creating a parallel sea of permanent existence. He wanted to survive dissolving in Suniata. Lotus sutra gives the details of that survival history again and again. First time in introducion chapter and last time in Phantom city (chapter 7).

And he succeeded. His success is mentioned in (chapter 16) life span.

Please read Lotus sutra again, meditate and then put up your question.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:31 pm

ram peswani wrote:
ram peswani wrote:
Noah wrote:ram-
What are some of the ideas or insights do you have when the questions you pose arise in your meditation?
Thank you bro! A "beautiful picture" YES! Beauty is magnified many times over, inconceivable is the splendor of Buddhahood described.

Noah




Lotus sutra is scientific fact. It describes the "cosmic journey" of evolution (Immeasurable meanings) from Suniata to Buddhahood. it is not a fiction.

ram


Ram tries again because of strong compassion and practical wisdom. I shall expand the above sentence and explain "Immeasurable Meanings".

Suniata is like sea. In sea fumes of water and other elements arise, interact and fall back in the sea thro various routes.
In Suniata Ego, time, space,light cosmic energies of two types arise.Along with Suniata these are 7 factors.
There is an interaction among them.
And Immeasurable variety of means of combinations arise.
This is what we call cosmic evolution.
All physical universe, life, sentients, heavenly and lower world are the products which arise.


But like in the sea of water all these are bound to fall back to Suniata. Nothing survives.
Evolution brought out complicated and advanced life as it came down to physical world in the form of human beings as well.
But even arhats (advanced human beings} will go back to suniata losing all the wisdom, knowledge, memory etc. on the way.

This gets complicated now. One of highly advanced soul (above physical world) thought out a plan of creating a parallel sea of permanent existence. He wanted to survive rather than dissolve in Suniata. Lotus sutra gives the details of that survival history again and again. First time in introducion chapter and last time in Phantom city (chapter 7).

And he succeeded. His success is mentioned in (chapter 16) life span.

Please read Lotus sutra again, meditate and then put up your question.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:28 am

I think I understand what you are saying here, let me try to say it again in a way that can be better understood

Sunyata (void/emptiness) is the primordial state. The state that all existence unfolds from and contracts to. In a cycle from beginningless time.
In Sunyata: Ego, time, space, light and 2 different types of cosmic forces arise. Along with sunyata, there are 7 factors.
These being conditions now, the physical plane unfolds, Stars, planets, life, everything rolls on.
All is lost in the final times of a world system (contraction?) as all is dissolved in sunyata.
A Buddha (the primordial Buddha) conceived of the way to exist apart from the 7 factors (any duality) and beyond Sunyata itself. The Lotus Sutra sows the way and is the teaching of this.

Correct anything I just wrote, I am trying to restate what you have written as I understand it.

It is hard to see exactly what you have described, we must bring out the teachings that support your statements In the Sutra itself.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:51 am

Noah wrote:I think I understand what you are saying here, let me try to say it again in a way that can be better understood

Sunyata (void/emptiness) is the primordial state. The state that all existence unfolds from and contracts to. In a cycle from beginningless time.

Well said and thanks.


In Sunyata: Ego, time, space, light and 2 different types of cosmic forces arise. Along with sunyata, there are 7 factors.
These being conditions now, the physical plane unfolds, Stars, planets, life, everything rolls on.
All is lost in the final times of a world system (contraction?) as all is dissolved in sunyata.

well said

A Buddha (the primordial Buddha) conceived of the way to exist apart from the 7 factors (any duality) and beyond Sunyata itself. The Lotus Sutra sows the way and is the teaching of this.

Buddha evolves with these 7 factors and is not out of the range of Suniata.

It is hard to see exactly what you have described, we must bring out the teachings that support your statements In the Sutra itself.


Guatam Buddha has said in Lotus Sutra that a Budha has knowledge more than all the past, present sentients of
this universe can bring out. And all of of it cannot be written in a small book of sutras which is to be memorised
by the disciples. In a picture unimportant details are omitted to be filled in by the disciple. But in the end if
picture looks harmonious, it should be accepted. Or a few changes can be made to make it a look better.


I want to move forward to positioning Awareness in this whole set up. Awareness fits in two positions in this
picture. For those who believe in God Awareness is basic nature of God and is present in all 7 factors. And for
those
Who do not believe in God, Awareness is the 7th factor and Suniata is the parent who is aloof. As for myself i do
not believe in God. In my case Suniata is ignorant and created Buddha is the God who is guiding this universe.
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:48 am

ram peswani wrote:
Noah wrote:I think I understand what you are saying here, let me try to say it again in a way that can be better understood

Sunyata (void/emptiness) is the primordial state. The state that all existence unfolds from and contracts to. In a cycle from beginningless time.

Well said and thanks.


In Sunyata: Ego, time, space, light and 2 different types of cosmic forces arise. Along with sunyata, there are 7 factors.
These being conditions now, the physical plane unfolds, Stars, planets, life, everything rolls on.
All is lost in the final times of a world system (contraction?) as all is dissolved in sunyata.

well said

A Buddha (the primordial Buddha) conceived of the way to exist apart from the 7 factors (any duality) and beyond Sunyata itself. The Lotus Sutra sows the way and is the teaching of this.

Buddha evolves with these 7 factors and is not out of the range of Suniata.

It is hard to see exactly what you have described, we must bring out the teachings that support your statements In the Sutra itself.


Guatam Buddha has said in Lotus Sutra that a Budha has knowledge more than all the past, present sentients of
this universe can bring out. And all of of it cannot be written in a small book of sutras which is to be memorised
by the disciples. In a picture unimportant details are omitted to be filled in by the disciple. But in the end if
picture looks harmonious, it should be accepted. Or a few changes can be made to make it a look better.


I want to move forward to positioning Awareness in this whole set up. Awareness fits in two positions in this
picture. For those who believe in God Awareness is basic nature of God and is present in all 7 factors. And for
those
Who do not believe in God, Awareness is the 7th factor and Suniata is the parent who is aloof. As for myself i do
not believe in God. In my case Suniata is ignorant and created Buddha is the God who is guiding this universe.


I ask- are the 2 "cosmic energies" you are refering to the yin/yang energy? This basic dualism?
I love the Dharma and believe in no "creator god" or any "G"od. I am if the same mind as well that if there is a figure to be worshiped as a guide it is the Eternal Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. Thank you for sharing and I think it is some truth in how you describe the differences in Awareness here. Example: many have an understanding of cause/effect, conditionality, rebirth and karma. When there is a belief in God- many subtle aspects of "reality" remain misunderstood as "God consciousness."
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Re: Chapter 7 Parable of the Magic City

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:09 am

Noah wrote:This chapter starts off with an introduction. Buddha Universal Surpassing Wisdom! Buddha Sakyamuni describes the length of time since that Buddha's passing as an inconceivable number multiplied by an inconceivable number. Multiply it by yet ANOTHER inconceivably large number and the amount of ages past since this Buddha! Sakyamuni Buddha perceives this time just as any other. Time is transcended here and we stand outside/above/at metaphysical beginning (no beginning). In this chapter of the text, the perspective is brought fully to the level of the One Vehicle, Perfect Enlightenment, Buddhahood. A teaching is given here and the disciples are all brought to the full realization by a another parable.
There is something special about this Buddha, he sits gaining Enlightenment for many ages before gaining the full Wisdom of the Buddhas. His sixteen sons and the gods worship the Buddha until he gains Perfect Enlightenment. When he does, All of existence is shaken and lit up- gods, men, all sentient beings can see each other and they gather to hear the Dharma preached. One they are all gathered, Universal Surpassing Wisdom preaches the Law of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Co-arising. Innumerable beings are liberated by the three vehicles. His sixteen sons then ask him to preach the Sutra of the Perfect Knowledge of Buddhas and they will put it to practice. It is then (for the first time?) that THIS Sutra, The Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law Sutra is expounded by name. The sixteen sons understand it, all other beings are confused even after many ages of preaching. The Sutra continues to be preached by the sons as Universal Surpassing Wisdom remains in seclusion for many more ages. These sixteen sons have all gained Perfect Enlightenment and continuously preach this Sutra. It is revealed that one of these sons was Sakyamuni Buddha! Having many of inconceivable ages ago trained under many Buddhas then leading others to Buddhahood! Now, Sakyamuni gained Perfect Enlightenment when?!?!?! The idea of "when" here has no meaning. this is the deepest perspective of only Buddhas, indescribable except in the language of prajna-parimita: it is ALL time and NO time. The Lotus Sutra is the Sutra in which Buddhahood transcends space and time. The disciples of the Buddha now are some of the same from that time long ago, all practice according to their capacity, all aspire for Buddhahood (or not), all are ceaselessly taught through countless lifetimes by the Buddhas out of compassion because even when Perfect Enlightenment is attained, the Bodhisattva Vow is not fully attained. Until ALL are liberated, the Buddhas will exist and teach.
The parable is amazing and I will say my understanding in my next post. This part of the Sutra I see as a foreshadowing to the main crux of the teaching.




Here you are describing Phantom city (chapter 7) in Burton translation. The Buddha Great Universal Wisdom Excellencenhas 16 sons.
Earlier in chapter Introduction the Buddha Sun Moon bright has 8 sons.

To explain this chapter we will first describe sons, bhoddissatvas and wheel turning and the names of the Buddhas. I will do this in short sentences leaving details with you unless asked for.

Buddha is formed to avoid decay due to outflow of Suniata energy.
One can do this with the Weapon of pure Awarness.
Surroundings and Suniata do not allow this.
Suniata depelets cosmic energy and surrounding add to the inflows which is good but also impurify which is not good.
Impurities hinder awareness,
Buddhas need inflows and if the inflow is pure, it expands the Buddha body.
Awareness with Wisdom if strong it purifies the impurities.

Sons are those who have dedicated their lives to the Buddha, and are later to submerge in the Buddha. They become the Buddha


to be contd.....
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Re: Chapter 7 Parable of the Magic City

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:07 am

ram peswani wrote:
Noah wrote:This chapter starts off with an introduction. Buddha Universal Surpassing Wisdom! Buddha Sakyamuni describes the length of time since that Buddha's passing as an inconceivable number multiplied by an inconceivable number. Multiply it by yet ANOTHER inconceivably large number and the amount of ages past since this Buddha! Sakyamuni Buddha perceives this time just as any other. Time is transcended here and we stand outside/above/at metaphysical beginning (no beginning). In this chapter of the text, the perspective is brought fully to the level of the One Vehicle, Perfect Enlightenment, Buddhahood. A teaching is given here and the disciples are all brought to the full realization by a another parable.
There is something special about this Buddha, he sits gaining Enlightenment for many ages before gaining the full Wisdom of the Buddhas. His sixteen sons and the gods worship the Buddha until he gains Perfect Enlightenment. When he does, All of existence is shaken and lit up- gods, men, all sentient beings can see each other and they gather to hear the Dharma preached. One they are all gathered, Universal Surpassing Wisdom preaches the Law of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Co-arising. Innumerable beings are liberated by the three vehicles. His sixteen sons then ask him to preach the Sutra of the Perfect Knowledge of Buddhas and they will put it to practice. It is then (for the first time?) that THIS Sutra, The Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law Sutra is expounded by name. The sixteen sons understand it, all other beings are confused even after many ages of preaching. The Sutra continues to be preached by the sons as Universal Surpassing Wisdom remains in seclusion for many more ages. These sixteen sons have all gained Perfect Enlightenment and continuously preach this Sutra. It is revealed that one of these sons was Sakyamuni Buddha! Having many of inconceivable ages ago trained under many Buddhas then leading others to Buddhahood! Now, Sakyamuni gained Perfect Enlightenment when?!?!?! The idea of "when" here has no meaning. this is the deepest perspective of only Buddhas, indescribable except in the language of prajna-parimita: it is ALL time and NO time. The Lotus Sutra is the Sutra in which Buddhahood transcends space and time. The disciples of the Buddha now are some of the same from that time long ago, all practice according to their capacity, all aspire for Buddhahood (or not), all are ceaselessly taught through countless lifetimes by the Buddhas out of compassion because even when Perfect Enlightenment is attained, the Bodhisattva Vow is not fully attained. Until ALL are liberated, the Buddhas will exist and teach.
The parable is amazing and I will say my understanding in my next post. This part of the Sutra I see as a foreshadowing to the main crux of the teaching.




Here you are describing Phantom city (chapter 7) in Burton translation. The Buddha Great Universal Wisdom Excellencenhas 16 sons.
Earlier in chapter Introduction the Buddha Sun Moon bright has 8 sons.

To explain this chapter we will first describe sons, bhoddissatvas and wheel turning and the names of the Buddhas. I will do this in short sentences leaving details with you unless asked for.

Buddha is formed to avoid decay due to outflow of Suniata energy.
One can do this with the Weapon of pure Awarness.
Surroundings and Suniata do not allow this.
Suniata depelets cosmic energy and surrounding add to the inflows which is good but also impurify which is not good.
Impurities hinder awareness,
Buddhas need inflows and if the inflow is pure, it expands the Buddha body.
Awareness with Wisdom if strong it purifies the impurities.

Sons are those who have dedicated their lives to the Buddha, and are later to submerge in the Buddha. They become the Buddha



Buddha sons will go to nirvana during correct law of Buddha.

The Sutra mentions "life span" of Buddha during which he rules before going to Nirvana. He continues to increase number of sons during this period.
During "correct law" the Buddha sons enter Nirvana one by one.
And the third period of "counterfeit" law is the period of decaying of the buddha era.

Bhoddisatvas do not contribute to the Buddha era but they surround the Primal Buddha energy for their own good and protection. Bhoddisattvas collect inflows by aware meditation and correct Wisdoms till they decide to become Buddhas.

Turning the wheel.... Suniata prevails every where from highest planes where life is eternal to lowest plane where life is in micro, micro second, There are quantum jumps of cosmic energy form plane to plane. When Buddha thro Inflow get enough cosmic energy, His existence gives a quantum jump to higher plane. this is "wheel turning"


In introduction chapter Buddha "Sun Moon Bright" has 8 sons.. He is Sun Moon Bright because he meditates on light. His 8 sons surround him in eight directions. They are also trained on meditation on light by the Buddha. All these sons face all other good or bad surrounding energies allowing outflow of light energy towards Buddha in the centre. Buddha is aware in meditation of non permanence of Ego and is unaware of anyother energy other than light in his meditation, His meditation is strong because of protection surrounding him of his sons. He comes out of his meditation only to help any of his sons who is faltering or needs help. They are all together and one, Sun Moon bright was in upper plane with his sons and they have not yet penetrated to physical level, The disturbing energies are not many compared to Wisdom Excellence Buddha.


Buddha Great Universal Wisom Excellence (chapter 7 Phantom city) works in our present galaxi. He has 16 sons, 2 in each of 8 directions.Our galaxi has physical life, twin cosmic energies and lots of complications. Many types of Wisdoms are required to purify. Surrounding protections have to be strong due to extreme pollution.our galaxi has already purified in 8 directions. Guatam Buddha is the last 16 th. Buddha to have achieved Nirvana. With him correct law of Universal Excellence Budha ends and counterfeit law starts in our galaxi.

The process does not end here. It goes on growing. Each Buddha entering Nirvana adds to the life of eternal Buddha. Buddha energy protects all the bhoddisattvas who are collecting inflows in this protected atmosphere and adding to various wisdoms. They thus are expanding the sphere of influence in this universe and helping others of eternal Buddha energy.

ram
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby ram peswani » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:18 am

Noah wrote:
ram peswani wrote:
Noah wrote:I think I understand what you are saying here, let me try to say it again in a way that can be better understood


I ask- are the 2 "cosmic energies" you are refering to the yin/yang energy? This basic dualism?
I love the Dharma and believe in no "creator god" or any "G"od. I am if the same mind as well that if there is a figure to be worshiped as a guide it is the Eternal Buddha of the Lotus Sutra. Thank you for sharing and I think it is some truth in how you describe the differences in Awareness here. Example: many have an understanding of cause/effect, conditionality, rebirth and karma. When there is a belief in God- many subtle aspects of "reality" remain misunderstood as "God consciousness."









we in India say Shiva and Shakti
Yin/ yang is probably chinese.
Adam and eve is what christians call.
In nature they are Male and female
Male retains the ego, female devotion and service
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Re: Chapter 7 Parable of the Magic City

Postby ram peswani » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:56 am

Noah wrote:This chapter starts off with an introduction. Buddha Universal Surpassing Wisdom! Buddha Sakyamuni describes the length of time since that Buddha's passing as an inconceivable number multiplied by an inconceivable number. Multiply it by yet ANOTHER inconceivably large number and the amount of ages past since this Buddha! Sakyamuni Buddha perceives this time just as any other. Time is transcended here and we stand outside/above/at metaphysical beginning (no beginning). In this chapter of the text, the perspective is brought fully to the level of the One Vehicle, Perfect Enlightenment, Buddhahood. A teaching is given here and the disciples are all brought to the full realization by a another parable.
There is something special about this Buddha, he sits gaining Enlightenment for many ages before gaining the full Wisdom of the Buddhas. His sixteen sons and the gods worship the Buddha until he gains Perfect Enlightenment. When he does, All of existence is shaken and lit up- gods, men, all sentient beings can see each other and they gather to hear the Dharma preached. One they are all gathered, Universal Surpassing Wisdom preaches the Law of the 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Co-arising. Innumerable beings are liberated by the three vehicles. His sixteen sons then ask him to preach the Sutra of the Perfect Knowledge of Buddhas and they will put it to practice. It is then (for the first time?) that THIS Sutra, The Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law Sutra is expounded by name. The sixteen sons understand it, all other beings are confused even after many ages of preaching. The Sutra continues to be preached by the sons as Universal Surpassing Wisdom remains in seclusion for many more ages. These sixteen sons have all gained Perfect Enlightenment and continuously preach this Sutra. It is revealed that one of these sons was Sakyamuni Buddha! Having many of inconceivable ages ago trained under many Buddhas then leading others to Buddhahood! Now, Sakyamuni gained Perfect Enlightenment when?!?!?! The idea of "when" here has no meaning. this is the deepest perspective of only Buddhas, indescribable except in the language of prajna-parimita: it is ALL time and NO time. The Lotus Sutra is the Sutra in which Buddhahood transcends space and time. The disciples of the Buddha now are some of the same from that time long ago, all practice according to their capacity, all aspire for Buddhahood (or not), all are ceaselessly taught through countless lifetimes by the Buddhas out of compassion because even when Perfect Enlightenment is attained, the Bodhisattva Vow is not fully attained. Until ALL are liberated, the Buddhas will exist and teach.
The parable is amazing and I will say my understanding in my next post. This part of the Sutra I see as a foreshadowing to the main crux of the teaching.





Ram writes.....


Scientists have confirmed that our galaxi is 14.5 billions years old by confirmed scientific instruments and no one is challanging them.

Guatam Buddha is born in this galaxi 2500 approx years ago on our earth.

Guatam Buddha also confirms in Phantom city (chapter 7) that he along with one other Buddha is last of 16 sons of Universal excellent Buddha who is still on the job.

Though his physical body is dead, he is still active in this galaxy.

He being active our galaxy is still passing thro correct law.

Universal Eaxcellence Buddha might have started collecting our milky way thousands of billions years earlier.



His method as per Phantom city is as below.

He lives a normal life (not at physical level) and begets or collects 16 sons.
He trains these sons on the laws of this universe and Wisdom.

At a certain stage he decides that sons are ready and now he should be thinking of Turning the wheel.

So he leaves his kingdom to his sons dividing them in 8 parts. Two sons in each direction of his kingdom to rule and to protect him from disturbance.

UWE (universal wisdom excellence) selects a centre and sits in Awarness meditation. This stops all outflows and inflows contiue.

(We must all sit in awarenes meditation everyday to grow our luck,health and happiness)

Probably one of two rules one side of the kingdom and second one assures total stoppage of impure cosmic energy towards UWE.
Surrounding stars and their ruling Brahama feel the attraction in direction of UWE and move towards him because of strong inflows towards UWE.

Formation of milkyway with many galaxies starts.This is turning of wheel.

After a huge growth of milky way, he knows that his sons are ready for takeover as buddhas and bestows prophesy of Buddhahood on them. This is also turning of the wheel.

The third turning of wheel happens when he gets ready to go to Nirvana.

His 15 sons have already completed the work and gone to Nirvan.

His 16th son Guatam Buddha has been left with the pollution of all other galaxi worlds gone to Nirvan. This is a very dirty world and winding it up leaving minimum residue is to be done by him.

But his Wisdom eye and the experience of past Buddhas gives him a method and hope.

Help comes in form of Emergence of Treasure Tower (chapter11).
ram peswani
 
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Re: The Lotus Sutra

Postby Noah » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:08 pm

ram peswani wrote:
Scientists have confirmed that our galaxi is 14.5 billions years old by confirmed scientific instruments and no one is challanging them.

Guatam Buddha is born in this galaxi 2500 approx years ago on our earth.

Guatam Buddha also confirms in Phantom city (chapter 7) that he along with one other Buddha is last of 16 sons of Universal excellent Buddha who is still on the job.

Though his physical body is dead, he is still active in this galaxy.

He being active our galaxy is still passing thro correct law.

Universal Eaxcellence Buddha might have started collecting our milky way thousands of billions years earlier.



His method as per Phantom city is as below.

He lives a normal life (not at physical level) and begets or collects 16 sons.
He trains these sons on the laws of this universe and Wisdom.

At a certain stage he decides that sons are ready and now he should be thinking of Turning the wheel.

So he leaves his kingdom to his sons dividing them in 8 parts. Two sons in each direction of his kingdom to rule and to protect him from disturbance.

UWE (universal wisdom excellence) selects a centre and sits in Awarness meditation. This stops all outflows and inflows contiue.

(We must all sit in awarenes meditation everyday to grow our luck,health and happiness)

Probably one of two rules one side of the kingdom and second one assures total stoppage of impure cosmic energy towards UWE.
Surrounding stars and their ruling Brahama feel the attraction in direction of UWE and move towards him because of strong inflows towards UWE.

Formation of milkyway with many galaxies starts.This is turning of wheel.

After a huge growth of milky way, he knows that his sons are ready for takeover as buddhas and bestows prophesy of Buddhahood on them. This is also turning of the wheel.

The third turning of wheel happens when he gets ready to go to Nirvana.

His 15 sons have already completed the work and gone to Nirvan.

His 16th son Guatam Buddha has been left with the pollution of all other galaxi worlds gone to Nirvan. This is a very dirty world and winding it up leaving minimum residue is to be done by him.

But his Wisdom eye and the experience of past Buddhas gives him a method and hope.

Help comes in form of Emergence of Treasure Tower (chapter11).


Wow, ram! This is totally amazing and I wish only for more supporting details, as my mind reals when trying to apply the method of unfoldment in this chapter to cosmic evolutionary theory. It is best just to feel it without trying to intellectually apply all aspects of theory anyways. Just seeing in the light of cosmic evolution is limited too, like the whole of the Lotus Sutra- understanding must come from personal experience of the Sutra.
I find it interesting also that the smallest reality that a human being can be "sensitive" to is one photon. That is to say- the dark-adjusted eye can perceive a single photon and in quantum mechanics- space/time and matter/energy cannot exist separate from conscious awareness. Thanks bro! :)

I hope that others share understanding of the Sutra or at least add voice to the thread, before long, we will be standing in the midst of the Abundant Treasures Stupa! The sutra shifts a bit and the path (vehicle, time) is left behind as the goal (Buddhahood, eternity) takes center-stage.
It is all happening right now :)
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