enjoying samsara

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

enjoying samsara

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:56 pm

So, the last year has seen me get more serious than ever before about Dharma practice, engaging in daily study and practice, etc.

One of the most noticeable effects of this has been a greatly improved management of my mental health, up to and including...actually enjoying life more. Sometimes I walk outside and colors are brighter etc., there is a feeling of freedom, a lifting of weight, as a consequence, I can enjoy small, meaningless activities, not worry about past and future, and daily life has more..well, pleasure involved I guess. Lately I am especially liking the fact that I can now talk to friends and such in way where (sometimes) I can turn around negative things we are talking about, and occasionally give them some sense of relief. I was never able to do this before, and in fact would not even have thought enough about the mental state of others to want to do it.

I'm wondering what the view on this is, should samsara be enjoyable in this way..is it samsara that I am enjoying? Alot of times when I read Mahayana stuff, there is so much emphasis on revulsion and pointlessness of worldly endeavor..the pointlessness I get, this is pretty much undeniable. The sense revulsion is at odds with what i'm feeling though.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby padma norbu » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:00 pm

holy crap, I just posted about this in another thread. I think it is a good sign. As I said in the other thread, you don't see many great teachers moping around and being depressed. They always say "How wonderful!" about nearly everything that is going on around them except genocide and war.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:00 pm

I wouldn't worry about it.

:smile:
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:06 pm

Nothing wrong with enjoying samsara Johnny , whatever some Thera...cough, dour folk say.
The point is to never be fooled into thinking that the enjoyment will last or can be recaptured.
Or that it is separate from you.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Lindama » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:07 pm

Sounds like the light looking outward Johnny. My view has changed also, it's more intimate.

We can call it samsara or not ... but to see a world where universal principals are fulfilling themselves regardless of our preference... well, the colors are more bright.

I'm not an expert but since when is revulsion a big part of mahayana? Doesn't mahayana have a view of fulfillment? dunno....

:namaste:
Last edited by Lindama on Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lindama
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:13 pm

Personally I think revulsion is as pathological as obsession. Two sides one coin.
There is a deeply sad thread on Dhamma Wheel at the moment about managing sexuality by cultivating revulsion for the body.
How joyless and graceless, and how lacking in humanity.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby reddust » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:16 pm

I cycle on this over the years. Reminds me of running long distance. I learn not to take it too seriously. Enjoy the sunshine while the sun is out! :heart: I am so glad you are happy, that makes me feel really happy no matter where I am in my own cycle. :namaste:
Mind and mental events are concepts, mere postulations within the three realms of samsara Longchenpa .... A link to my Garden, Art and Foodie blog Scratch Living
User avatar
reddust
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:29 am
Location: Oregon

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:28 pm

Lindama wrote:Sounds like the light looking outward Johnny. My view has changed also, it's more intimate.

We can call it samsara or not ... but to see a world where universal principals are fulfilling themselves regardless of our preference... well, the colors are more bright.

I'm not an expert but since when is revulsion a big part of mahayana? Doesn't mahayana have a view of fulfillment? dunno....

:namaste:



Read any basic Mahayana text, the kind of thing you are supposed to read prior to Vajrayana practice..stuff like Parting From The Four Attachments, The Words of My Perfect Teacher etc. They all spend a huge amount of time on the importance of renunciation of samsara...i'm just wondering what renunciation really looks like in daily life, and whether from that point of view, this sense of freedom is something to be enjoyed or not. My gut feeling is that it is, and that comports some with what i've been taught..but i'm wondering what other folks think.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Lindama » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:34 pm

I haven't read any of those books.... but

it seems to me when the light begins to manifest, there is no need for renunciation

enjoy!!
Lindama
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby bob » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:35 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:...i'm just wondering what renunciation really looks like in daily life, and whether from that point of view, this sense of freedom is something to be enjoyed or not. My gut feeling is that it is, and that comports some with what i've been taught..but i'm wondering what other folks think.


The truly wise recognize each moment as a gift, clinging to nothing, turning nothing away. In the end, we will be made vividly aware that love is all that matters -- not our brilliant insights into emptiness, or accumulations of prostrations and mantra repetitions, etc...
bob
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 5:37 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:36 pm

According to Gampopa, the first two (of four) obstacles to liberation are attachment to the things of this life, and attachment to the pleasures of samsara. So tread lightly in your enjoyment!
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:41 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:According to Gampopa, the first two (of four) obstacles to liberation are attachment to the things of this life, and attachment to the pleasures of samsara. So tread lightly in your enjoyment!


What are the pleasures of samsara in this context though? is a feeling of freedom due to lack of clinging to the past for instance something that you can "enjoy" without more clinging?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Simon E. » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:45 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Lindama wrote:Sounds like the light looking outward Johnny. My view has changed also, it's more intimate.

We can call it samsara or not ... but to see a world where universal principals are fulfilling themselves regardless of our preference... well, the colors are more bright.

I'm not an expert but since when is revulsion a big part of mahayana? Doesn't mahayana have a view of fulfillment? dunno....

:namaste:



Read any basic Mahayana text, the kind of thing you are supposed to read prior to Vajrayana practice..stuff like Parting From The Four Attachments, The Words of My Perfect Teacher etc. They all spend a huge amount of time on the importance of renunciation of samsara...i'm just wondering what renunciation really looks like in daily life, and whether from that point of view, this sense of freedom is something to be enjoyed or not. My gut feeling is that it is, and that comports some with what i've been taught..but i'm wondering what other folks think.

I think you might want to seek out the Dzogchen view.
:namaste:
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:48 pm

Well, I know enough about the view of Mahamudra and Dzogchen to get an idea..

Perhaps it's just a question of language, 84,000 teachings and all that.

Maybe i've just read enough over-the-top Mahayana texts for now lol.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby tatpurusa » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Read any basic Mahayana text, the kind of thing you are supposed to read prior to Vajrayana practice..stuff like Parting From The Four Attachments, The Words of My Perfect Teacher etc. They all spend a huge amount of time on the importance of renunciation of samsara...i'm just wondering what renunciation really looks like in daily life, and whether from that point of view, this sense of freedom is something to be enjoyed or not. My gut feeling is that it is, and that comports some with what i've been taught..but i'm wondering what other folks think.


From a samsaric point of view (where a beginner stands) renunciation seems to be something difficult, sad, negative etc. Something that many try to compensate by generating a feeling of revulsion towards the objects of desire.
In reality, renunciation is nothing like this. Renunciation is contentment. Renunciation is feeling of freedom, lightness, joy.
Why? Because renuciation is simply not chasing things we do not have.

In ordinary life people tend to put conditions on their happyness. They think they are going to be happy or content, when some outer conditions get fulfilled. As long as this is not the case, they forbid themselves to be content.
The result of this is that we constantly live with insatisfaction and unhappyness. The future never arrives, and if one condition gets fulfilled, we still have a lot of other conditions in order our happyness not to materialize.

Feeling satisfied and happy does not need an outer cause. Being unsatisfied on the other hand needs very strong reasons. We supply those.

If we stop putting those conditions on our happyness, stop wanting something else that is in the present moment, than we are content. This is renunciation.
Without any causes, just by being in the present and not wanting anything else we experience happyness. Because happyness is our true nature. It does not need a condition or a cause.

Practice enables us to experience the present, and brings us nearer to our real nature. This is why we feel more content even in ordinary or difficult situations.
tatpurusa
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:According to Gampopa, the first two (of four) obstacles to liberation are attachment to the things of this life, and attachment to the pleasures of samsara. So tread lightly in your enjoyment!


What are the pleasures of samsara in this context though? is a feeling of freedom due to lack of clinging to the past for instance something that you can "enjoy" without more clinging?

One's life being more enjoyable is a common (and good) indicator that your relationship with the teachings is healthy. Gampopa is warning against complacency with samsara and attachment to aspects of samsara. Mindfulness of the cyclical and impermanent nature of samsara is what's important, things can go great and life can be good but what comes will go, and what arises will fall. That's the only point he's making. The fact that you made the OP in the first place shows that you're mindful of this already so you're good to go.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby dude » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:41 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:So, the last year has seen me get more serious than ever before about Dharma practice, engaging in daily study and practice, etc.

Lately I am especially liking the fact that I can now talk to friends and such in way where (sometimes) I can turn around negative things we are talking about, and occasionally give them some sense of relief. I was never able to do this before, and in fact would not even have thought enough about the mental state of others to want to do it.

I am greatly encouraged to hear this, both for you and for my own sake.
You are using the benefits of practice for the sake of others, maybe for the first time. By all means enjoy it. How can we show others the way to happiness if we ourselves don't feel good?
dude
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:38 am

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:52 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:So, the last year has seen me get more serious than ever before about Dharma practice, engaging in daily study and practice, etc.

One of the most noticeable effects of this has been a greatly improved management of my mental health, up to and including...actually enjoying life more. Sometimes I walk outside and colors are brighter etc., there is a feeling of freedom, a lifting of weight, as a consequence, I can enjoy small, meaningless activities, not worry about past and future, and daily life has more..well, pleasure involved I guess. Lately I am especially liking the fact that I can now talk to friends and such in way where (sometimes) I can turn around negative things we are talking about, and occasionally give them some sense of relief. I was never able to do this before, and in fact would not even have thought enough about the mental state of others to want to do it.

I'm wondering what the view on this is, should samsara be enjoyable in this way..is it samsara that I am enjoying? Alot of times when I read Mahayana stuff, there is so much emphasis on revulsion and pointlessness of worldly endeavor..the pointlessness I get, this is pretty much undeniable. The sense revulsion is at odds with what i'm feeling though.


in intruduction to tantra Lama Yeshe points out that we actually should seek in tantra the most profound pleasure. but not ordinary pleasure, but pleasure that can give us lasting happiness. so i think altruistic open and good hearted pleasure is very welcome and a good sign. also I've had a though that if we cling and are stuck to the concept of samsara, can we ever really be free from it. i dont know why but ive started to think that holding on the the truth that we live in samsara is actually a hindrance at some point to inner progress. i dont know why but it gets you nowhere and doesnt really help in anything. so i guess we shouldnt differentiate or label samsara as bad and nirvana as good, but both both and equal. like that samsara has the qualities of nirvana and nirvana has the qualities of samsara in it, not to say they are the same thing but in essence they are non-dual so why make the distinction. its just life. as to say something more, i think samsara is a good concept to give meaning to life and suffering and everything, but i notice that we use it to limit our thoughts and our life and everything.
my personal opinion is that we shouldnt be revulsed to the point of it being obsessive thought or a forced one or imposed or imputed as not to obstruct anything other more positive quality, i think if we can develop sincere and natural revulsion at our own samsaric qualities, that can make a good use of both of those concepts in a healthy manner, but i think no point in being revulsed by outer phenomena really, it can make the mind more muddy in a sense that it provokes disturbing emotions. just projections so i try to keep it pure and positive. i dont really care about samsara, or make a big fuss about it anymore, i want to call it life again.

hopefully something useful was said. :smile:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby Lindama » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:56 pm

KonchokZoepa:
ive started to think that holding on the the truth that we live in samsara is actually a hindrance at some point to inner progress.


:twothumbsup:
Lindama
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: enjoying samsara

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Lindama wrote:Sounds like the light looking outward Johnny. My view has changed also, it's more intimate.

We can call it samsara or not ... but to see a world where universal principals are fulfilling themselves regardless of our preference... well, the colors are more bright.

I'm not an expert but since when is revulsion a big part of mahayana? Doesn't mahayana have a view of fulfillment? dunno....

:namaste:



Read any basic Mahayana text, the kind of thing you are supposed to read prior to Vajrayana practice..stuff like Parting From The Four Attachments, The Words of My Perfect Teacher etc. They all spend a huge amount of time on the importance of renunciation of samsara...i'm just wondering what renunciation really looks like in daily life, and whether from that point of view, this sense of freedom is something to be enjoyed or not. My gut feeling is that it is, and that comports some with what i've been taught..but i'm wondering what other folks think.


renunciation from what i know is that we renounce the inner obsessiveness towards the mundane pleasures and to not regard them as our refuge, or what we hope to accomplish or strive toward. renounce in that sense our ordinary small mindedness towards life and what we seek from it, like the actions we do to satisfy ourselves only to find out that we were only dissatisfying ourselves in reality. to renounce that. and instead we seek higher happiness and follow the path. Lama Yeshe also made it clear that renunciation is not that we renounce pleasure from ourselves. true happiness or authentic pleasure is what to seek for in tantra. bliss. not to derive ourselves from it. so if you can let go from your small minded pursuit for self gratification and individual happiness, and seek higher happiness from Dharma and cultivate the altruistic mind ( bodhicitta ) i think it is very clear that you are renouncing your samsaric endeavors and taking refuge in the Dharma, thus practicing the renunciation of samsara.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Next

Return to Personal Experience

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

>