moving beyond hope and fear

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:19 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:There's no blind faith part to dharma.

Sorry but you introduced nothing but at belief... in unborn. Or rather in something that is hiding behind this idea.
smcj wrote:Because my personal beliefs have been repeatedly proven to me to be wrong (i.e. ignorance), and the Dharma has been proven right (i.e. enlightened awareness).

How is this more then a belief?
smcj wrote:I take on faith what lies at the end of the Path.

Oh.. that is precisely what I was pointing to. I have nothing against beliefs. You have yours, I have mine. But if we agree that those are just beliefs, we will not fight with each other anymore.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:31 pm

oushi wrote:Oh.. that is precisely what I was pointing to. I have nothing against beliefs. You have yours, I have mine. But if we agree that those are just beliefs, we will not fight with each other anymore.

When I went to India I got on a plane, and took it on faith that I would land in India. I had never been there before. It was outside my experience.

If you believe that reality is defined and limited by the way you experience it now, please entertain the idea that this is what is meant in Dharma by 'ignorance'. The entire premise of Dharma is that the Buddha saw things as they actually were, and that we see them in a corrupt and confused way. Our limited horizons do not allow for what the Buddha saw. As my teacher said, it takes a lot for someone to find out how much they don't know.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:35 pm

smcj wrote:f you believe that reality is defined and limited by the way you experience it now, please entertain the idea that this is what is meant in Dharma by 'ignorance'.

What I am pointing at is the fact that everything beyond ones experience, is a belief by definition.
smcj wrote:The entire premise of Dharma is that the Buddha saw things as they actually were, and that we see them in a corrupt and confused way. Our limited horizons do not allow for what the Buddha saw. As my teacher said, it takes a lot for someone to find out how much they don't know.

You believe in that premise, and in your teacher words. Still, only beliefs.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:43 pm

oushi wrote:
smcj wrote:f you believe that reality is defined and limited by the way you experience it now, please entertain the idea that this is what is meant in Dharma by 'ignorance'.

What I am pointing at is the fact that everything beyond ones experience, is a belief by definition.

And what I am pointing out is that one's experience can be changed. That is not a belief, by definition.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:56 pm

smcj wrote:
oushi wrote:
smcj wrote:f you believe that reality is defined and limited by the way you experience it now, please entertain the idea that this is what is meant in Dharma by 'ignorance'.

What I am pointing at is the fact that everything beyond ones experience, is a belief by definition.

And what I am pointing out is that one's experience can be changed. That is not a belief, by definition.

I did not question that. Are you suggesting that nirvana is a change of experience? Otherwise, what are you trying to prove by stating this?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:00 pm

oushi wrote:Sorry but you introduced nothing but at belief... in unborn. Or rather in something that is hiding behind this


You are restating your point while ignoring mine. Unborn is not a belief. Unless space is a faith. Unborn is not lying behind this. It is at the moment nondual. Dharma practice reveals the experience of space is ubiquitous and dominates as the un changing "tone" during all emotions. When one experiences emotions disappearing into space, it is called nirvana. Anyone can experience this anytime. There's no magic here.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:11 pm

I did not question that. Are you suggesting that nirvana is a change of experience?

Yes.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:12 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
oushi wrote:Sorry but you introduced nothing but at belief... in unborn. Or rather in something that is hiding behind this


You are restating your point while ignoring mine. Unborn is not a belief. Unless space is a faith.

Beside the fact that space is a faith, unborn is a belief. As it was stated above, belief is everything outside ones experience. You may be trying to point at an experience which is not yet described (thus unborn), but you cannot escape the fact that "unbord" is a description. By labeling an unborn experience, you are giving it a birth into idea. That idea was born 2500 years ago, was carried for centuries, and will probably die some day. You cannot do anything more then believe in it. To reach your ears it had to be born, otherwise how would you know about it? For us, Buddha gave birth to an idea he called Nirvana. We are free to believe it or not, but we cannot go beyond this belief.

smcj wrote:
I did not question that. Are you suggesting that nirvana is a change of experience?

Yes.

I am happy that I could help you find your nirvana. Or let me rephrase. Do you see the fact, that experience is changing, as nirvana?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:20 pm

I am happy that I could help you find your nirvana. Or let me rephrase. Do you see the fact that experience is changing as nirvana?

No. With Dharma practice I see experience as changing in the direction of Nirvana. If someone tells me about the North Pole, that is not part of my experience. But if I travel north and it gets colder, that makes the proposition that there is a North Pole very credible. Admittedly it is technically taken 'on faith' until such time as you get there, but that doesn't bother me. The fact it is getting colder is enough evidence to satisfy my requirements for evidence.
Last edited by smcj on Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:22 pm

smcj wrote:
I am happy that I could help you find your nirvana. Or let me rephrase. Do you see the fact that experience is changing as nirvana?

No. With Dharma practice I see experience as changing in the direction of Nirvana. If someone tells me about the North Pole, that is not part of my experience. But if I travel north and it gets colder, that makes the proposition that there is a North Pole very credible.

But still only a belief. South Pole is also very cold. And if you go up in Himalayas, you will gradually experience cold. Those are just beliefs, and you claim that one of them is more true then the other, because... you belief it is so.
Admittedly it is technically taken 'on faith' until such time as you get there, but that doesn't bother me.

I am glad to hear that. Now, do you see my statement about beliefs, as wrong?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:26 pm

oushi wrote:
smcj wrote:
I am happy that I could help you find your nirvana. Or let me rephrase. Do you see the fact that experience is changing as nirvana?

No. With Dharma practice I see experience as changing in the direction of Nirvana. If someone tells me about the North Pole, that is not part of my experience. But if I travel north and it gets colder, that makes the proposition that there is a North Pole very credible.

But still only a belief. South Pole is also very cold. And if you go up in Himalayas, you will gradually experience cold. Those are just beliefs, and you claim that one of them is more true then the other, because... you belief it is so.

As I just said, until I get to the end of the Path it is outside of my experience, and therefore a belief. However my experience is one of confidence in the Path, and extrapolating out from that, a belief it will end as unerringly as the Path itself is presented.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:33 pm

Do you still have any objection to what I wrote before?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:33 pm

oushi wrote:Beside the fact that space is a faith, unborn is a belief


Space is faith? We are calling the absence of obstructing condition, space. Thinking we don't experience space is flat stupid in my book. Unborn refers to absence of obstructing condition for phenomena to appear. Phenomena appear; hence there's an absence allowing them. Thinking we don't experience this is like announcing you are dead. This is not belief. It is a priori knowledge and direct experience.

Saying there's no nirvana is like saying there is no adulthood.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:37 pm

oushi wrote:Do you still have any objection to what I wrote before?

I object to the idea Sakyamuni created a fiction, particularly because he was emotionally incapable of facing mortality. So yes.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:42 pm

oushi wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
oushi wrote:Sorry but you introduced nothing but at belief... in unborn. Or rather in something that is hiding behind this


You are restating your point while ignoring mine. Unborn is not a belief. Unless space is a faith.

Beside the fact that space is a faith, unborn is a belief. As it was stated above, belief is everything outside ones experience. You may be trying to point at an experience which is not yet described (thus unborn), but you cannot escape the fact that "unbord" is a description. By labeling an unborn experience, you are giving it a birth into idea. That idea was born 2500 years ago, was carried for centuries, and will probably die some day. You cannot do anything more then believe in it. To reach your ears it had to be born, otherwise how would you know about it? For us, Buddha gave birth to an idea he called Nirvana. We are free to believe it or not, but we cannot go beyond this belief.


space is a faith ?

unborn is not a belief, you can experience it any moment.

from your example i think you have the wrong understanding what unborn means. sorry though i can not explain that to you. but that is what madhyamaka points out to, and with logic, analysis you get a direct experience, of the unborn.

if there is no unborn, there is no nirvana, there is no life after death, since if it is not the unborn that survives after death there is nothing that survives death and impermanence.

although you can go ahead and point out that belief in afterlife is a belief. there are many beings like padmasambhava and great many beings who have experienced the after death state and returned to tell about it in the tibetan history.
also it is proven fact in physics that energy cannot disappear, it can only change and transform.

what you say is very nihilistic in buddhist perspective. you can only believe in it. its the exact opposite of what buddha intended.

'' do not believe merely what i say but analyze it and prove it to be right yourself''

and also when you say you can not do nothing else except to believe in nirvana is false and just a belief and i would say a wrong view from a buddhist perspective, since the advice is to practice ,analyze and experience it first hand, so that it is not a belief. what obstructs you in reaching that is the belief that it is not possible. which is sad.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:47 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:We are calling the absence of obstructing condition, space.

So, where are obstructing conditions located?
invisiblediamond wrote:Unborn refers to absence of obstructing condition for phenomena to appear.

The the moment of appearing is not birth but?
invisiblediamond wrote:Phenomena appear; hence there's an absence allowing them.

This only imply that phenomena are free to arise. That they are liberated upon arising.
More here:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14180

smcj wrote:
oushi wrote:Do you still have any objection to what I wrote before?

I object to the idea Sakyamuni created a fiction, particularly because he was emotionally incapable of facing mortality. So yes.

And he left his home because? He was incapable of accepting mortality. Moreover, how does one create reality?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby KonchokZoepa » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:51 pm

oushi wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:We are calling the absence of obstructing condition, space.

So, where are obstructing conditions located?

in(side) space. they are obstructing the spaciness of space of clearness and freedom of space.
invisiblediamond wrote:Unborn refers to absence of obstructing condition for phenomena to appear.

The the moment of appearing is not birth but?

you can call it birth, but moment of appearing is but a moment of appearing, an appearance appearing, if you look closesly you can not really find anything but an appearance. anything other than that is a birth of a label.

smcj wrote:
oushi wrote:Do you still have any objection to what I wrote before?

I object to the idea Sakyamuni created a fiction, particularly because he was emotionally incapable of facing mortality. So yes.

And he left his home because? He was incapable of accepting mortality. Moreover, how does one create reality?[/quote]

where are you going at with how does one create reality. are you implying Shakyamuni created a certain reality?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby invisiblediamond » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:59 pm

oushi wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:We are calling the absence of obstructing condition, space.

So, where are obstructing conditions located?


The objects.

oushi wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Unborn refers to absence of obstructing condition for phenomena to appear.

The the moment of appearing is not birth but?


It's birth.

oushi wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Phenomena appear; hence there's an absence allowing them.

This only imply that phenomena are free to arise. That they are liberated upon arising.
More here:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14180


So you do want to talk in Buddhist terms? Freedom is unborn. Okay? But they are only liberated on arising if you don't do the hope fear dance with them, by letting that freedom take its course instead of populating that free space with hope and fear. Freedom from hope and fear is nirvana.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:05 pm

I object to the idea Sakyamuni created a fiction, particularly because he was emotionally incapable of facing mortality. So yes.

And he left his home because? He was incapable of accepting mortality.

Yes, that was his quest, which according to tradition was successful. No school of Buddhism thinks that all he did was come up with a placebo.
Moreover, how does one create reality?

You seem to think Nirvana is something created. To the best of my knowledge no school of Buddhism thinks that.

You are 100% entitled to your own world view. And you are 100% entitled to be dismissive of Dharma. However Sakyamuni understood that mindset, and therefore he pointed out to us that birth, aging, sickness and death do not allow for permanent happiness. He knew that much we could see for ourselves. And he pointed out that if we wanted a lasting happiness we would have to look beyond what we knew based on our everyday experiences. He spoke to us on the level where we live, which is the wish to be happy, and seeing things in the ordinary way. People that respond to that and look to see what is beyond their current horizon become Buddhists. Other people choose not to.

No, I ask a question. If he did not create a fiction, he had to create reality. Thus, I ask how, and what does that mean.
Well, I think the idea is that he uncovered a reality that was already there. Einstein didn't set the limits on the speed of light, for instance.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby oushi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:19 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:
You can only believe that what you said is true. You have no way of knowing. No point in getting confused.


right, that applies to us all. even you have no way of knowing what you just said is true. there is no way you can know.

I was leading this discussion to this point precisely. Why? Because if you can understand that there is no way of knowing anything, HOPE for being right, and FEAR of being wrong has no ground for rising. How Can one go beyond hope and fear if he takes up practice from fear..., with hope...
Turtles (beliefs), all the way down. You are all probably familiar with the parallel of using thorn to remove a thorn. Belief used to remove beliefs.
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Reason: Removal of ad hominem
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