moving beyond hope and fear

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moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:12 pm

How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:20 pm

i guess that there is one quality that at least decreases the intensity of hope and fear and that is contentment.

other one might be utter disenchantment with life and samsara, and basically with everything so you drop all that. my normal experiental understanding of that is that its the same as depression, but i know its not. actually it can have some of the same effects, but with positive effects that would be totally opposite to that of depression.

how to achieve that. i dont know, since when it is said that we should contemplate the four foundational thoughts. for me the contemplation happens that i engage in some conduct that fights against the morale or my view and standards of how i would be if i had integrated the four foundations. i see that, but still i dont change, im like a brick wall with lack or responding skills in this sense. if my heart would not be made of stone maybe i would have internalized it and realized it already. but can you force it, no i dont think so, maybe you can and it helps but im too lazy. i am so thickheaded that it hasnt made that big of a difference.

i think one way would be also to work with the winds and channels to purify the subtle mind, maybe this would be an effective way to work with things...
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby wisdom » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:53 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?


We move beyond hope and fear when we stop clinging to our problem producing mind. Our mind likes to make problems out of things and then seek to implement solutions. This is a samsaric attitude. The reality is that there is no problem, but we make it so. Even if you are dying right now its not a problem, but we act like it is.

In terms of how to do this, who knows? Its not easy to just abandon hoping for a better life and fearing that you wont get it. Trying to be in the present moment is the best advice I can give, since hope and fear cannot find footing here.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:01 pm

comes to my mind from the header of this thread, that in my case, it seems that the first approach which to try, is pretty much quite ego maniac style, wishing to eradicate the concepts and everything about hope and fear, by destroying the concepts, cause we cant find them anywhere else except the concepts. heheh, this is not the answer though, you can't do it, that is impossible.............
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Luke » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:14 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?

I think these tendencies are impossible to avoid completely unless one is enlightened. The best the rest of us can do is to lessen them by familiarizing ourselves with the teachings and experience of emptiness, and more simply, by calming our minds in general and by focusing on helping others.

Expecting ourselves to stop expecting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations is still an expectation! lol The only way out of the trap is to temporarily drop all this thinking and fussing by meditating. Just chill, bro, and stop expecting your practice to match your idea of "perfection."
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Luke wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?

I think these tendencies are impossible to avoid completely unless one is enlightened. The best the rest of us can do is to lessen them by familiarizing ourselves with the teachings and experience of emptiness, and more simply, by calming our minds in general and by focusing on helping others.

Expecting ourselves to stop expecting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations is still an expectation! lol The only way out of the trap is to temporarily drop all this thinking and fussing by meditating. Just chill, bro, and stop expecting your practice to match your idea of "perfection."


Yeah, it's hard not to be goal-oriented sometimes, i'm sure everyone has had the experience of sitting down to do whatever meditation it is you do, and having the voice in your head go "hey this crap isn't working" over and over, I try making it an object of meditation, but it's tiring sometimes.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:03 pm

one way is to accept death and accept that it can happen today or tomorrow. if you can rest in that with loving kindness and compassion wholeheartedly, there is no fear or hope in that space.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby duckfiasco » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:34 am

My approach, right or wrong, hasn't been to try to get rid of hope or fear.
Instead, I want to put their stories on hold, just to see what they're like.
I already know how to go with the flow, get wrapped up in fear or hopes and disappointments. I don't need any more practice at that.
But what might these things in my mind look like to someone else?
To someone not invested in the outcome?
The few times I've been able to do this have been very humbling.

I get those "ugh what a waste of my time, watching my effing NOSTRILS of all things" moments.
The quickest remedy is reaffirming my desire to practice as a means to help other beings.
Let's face it, practice is the perfect breeding ground for hopes, fears, frustration, inadequacy, whatever else.
You're going against the grain, not just of your own mind, but of what almost everyone else does.
That's scary, tiring, and confusing.
It takes a lot of bravery to question the authority of your fears or cherished ideals.
But I know you can do it :)
Namu Amida Butsu
The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
- Sengcan (tr. Suzuki)
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:06 pm

Of course I want what is good, and I do not want what is bad. That is a different thing than craving; I can live with bad circumstances, with bad outcomes, that is just life. Sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad things happen, and when they happen I accept both with equanimity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't hope and wish for good outcomes.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Karma Tashi G. » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:40 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Luke wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

Yeah, it's hard not to be goal-oriented sometimes, i'm sure everyone has had the experience of sitting down to do whatever meditation it is you do, and having the voice in your head go "hey this crap isn't working" over and over, I try making it an object of meditation, but it's tiring sometimes.


You are a jewel of a practicer. Lucky teacher to have you as a student; Lucky student to have you as a teacher! Without such fundamental honesty, there is no possibility of seeing any good outcome to the whole endeavor!

Hey, this crap doesn't work most of the time!! But when it does!!!!!!!!!!!!! Zen people say things like "it's like chewing on an iron nail" or "its like a mosquito trying to bore into iron oxen back" ( I love my library!)

Cheerfulness helps. Vigorous cheerfulness is even better.

KTG
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:36 pm

Ha, thanks man..vigorous cheerfulness, gonna remember that.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby greentara » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:42 pm

Speaking as a novice ...without hope how can you continue? Without a doubt fear and uncertainty is the driving force that propels you on. Going through dry spells when you're full of 'Oh whats the point?' 'I'm wasting my time!' It passes and whether you believe you are making progress (very hard to measure) you just keep at it.
I came upon an interesting comment on another Buddhist forum where a man had been with Trungpa in the early years and got really disillusioned. He moved on and embraced the Orthodox Church. Someone asked 'so why are you on a Buddhist forum?' he didn't really have an answer. I suspect the old yearning is still there, the lost youthful years, deep down, ever present niggling away at the man.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Jesse » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:13 pm

wisdom wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?


We move beyond hope and fear when we stop clinging to our problem producing mind. Our mind likes to make problems out of things and then seek to implement solutions. This is a samsaric attitude. The reality is that there is no problem, but we make it so. Even if you are dying right now its not a problem, but we act like it is.

In terms of how to do this, who knows? Its not easy to just abandon hoping for a better life and fearing that you wont get it. Trying to be in the present moment is the best advice I can give, since hope and fear cannot find footing here.


I agree, but it's not so easy as evidenced by how many Buddhists still suffer on a daily basis. I think it takes alot of suffering and alot more practice to really ingrain how self destructive these habits are, and to be able to realize when we are doing it, stop doing it and be content. I myself tend to have nihilistic tendencies towards the whole thing.

I think we really need to reflect on the process on a daily basis (aka practicing), through doing this our minds slowly learn it's own tricks, (and bad habbits), thus allowing our mind to catch itself, and the amount of willpower required to maintain a non-clinging states reduces.

Looking foward to the day it takes no effort. (for all of us :P) :)
"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know." - Albert Einstein
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby dude » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:49 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Luke wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:How can it be done?

I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it? How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?

I think these tendencies are impossible to avoid completely unless one is enlightened. The best the rest of us can do is to lessen them by familiarizing ourselves with the teachings and experience of emptiness, and more simply, by calming our minds in general and by focusing on helping others.

Expecting ourselves to stop expecting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations is still an expectation! lol The only way out of the trap is to temporarily drop all this thinking and fussing by meditating. Just chill, bro, and stop expecting your practice to match your idea of "perfection."


Yeah, it's hard not to be goal-oriented sometimes, i'm sure everyone has had the experience of sitting down to do whatever meditation it is you do, and having the voice in your head go "hey this crap isn't working" over and over, I try making it an object of meditation, but it's tiring sometimes.


I sure have heard that voice, a lot. I ask myself, "Well it worked before, how did it work then and how did it not work?"
Well, you could say I'm goal oriented, because attaining enlightenment is a goal.
When I get tired of fighting with my hopes and fears (and I do fight with them), I observe them quietly and open my mind up to let my innate wisdom show up and reveal the best possible cause to deal with the way things are right now.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby Karma Tashi G. » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:10 pm

One method is to trust/faith you are on the right path your lama/teacher gave you. Forget where this path leads. It just has one name: Path the Victorious Ones Walked.

The good fortune is more than if the whole world was filled with wish-fulfilling gems! Just tred this great path with no wants of where it leads tomorrow and no memories of what you saw yesterday. This way, the grasping is minimized and you are happy that your feet are on this Glorious Path. Walking is very easy; a day of walking is like any other, how can you tell someone or yourself "you walk badly!"

Paths all travel through many countries and show mountains, deserts, jungles, oceans, gorges. If you don't care what scenery you see, you will have a wonderful time! The path will keep you safe, but please have a teacher/lineage holder to talk to from time to time!

KTG
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby greentara » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:05 am

Dude, "well, you could say I'm goal oriented, because attaining enlightenment is a goal"
I'll have to disagree. The search for enlightenment is a yearning.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby dude » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:59 am

What does yearning mean to you?
What does the search for enlightenment mean to you?
Have you abandoned the desire to attain enlightenment?
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby greentara » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:14 am

Dude, Yearning tends to be a persistent desire, a longing. The word goal on the other hand usually smacks of ambition.
Its not really a problem and understand where you're coming from.
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby undefineable » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:41 pm

@Karma Tashi G.: You just reminded me of the story of the person who asked an Irishman the best wasy to get to Dublin. The Irishman replied: "Well, I wouldn't start from here" :jumping:

@greentara: Yearning for enlightenment to begin with seems unlikely to be cause major problems, as the object of yearning is the only one that's completely dissassociated from suffering. From a purely logical POV, of course, it looks like a catch-22 situation, unless one outgrows the yearning.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Of course I want what is good, and I do not want what is bad. That is a different thing than craving; I can live with bad circumstances, with bad outcomes, that is just life. Sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad things happen, and when they happen I accept both with equanimity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't hope and wish for good outcomes.
I can't see a difference between actively wanting good outcomes for oneself, and craving them. If one wishes for others to experience good outcomes, craving is unlikely to be involved unless there is an unconscious evolutionary trigger - i.e. unless those 'others' happen to be blood relations or their substitutes (pets). It's logical to assume that the less you desire, the greater your equanimity and acceptance, unless you're somehow able to override that logic :roll: On the other hand, many theists and humanists will be more likely than Buddhists to claim that the ultimate goodness of an outcome may be unrelated to the ways in ehich it affects sentient beings.

As to bad outcomes, a tricky one would be wanting to avoid rebirth in hell as a consequence of one's past actions of body, speech, and mind. I'm not sure how Milarepa got round that one, and not sure I'd understand if I knew. Of course, applying "Law of Attraction"-type thinking here would lead one to the ironic conclusion that the main cause of rebirth in hell is the fear of going there :rolleye: Seriously though, one line of thought that might help is to bear in mind that if the relevant teachings are true, then every mindstream now manifesting as 'human' has also manifested in hell from time to time, so it's nothing that everyone else, in some sense, hasn't had to go through.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: moving beyond hope and fear

Postby smcj » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:37 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I mean really, the very basis of our existence is expecting something, wanting something to conform to our expectations...how can one avoid doing this with Dharma? Should we even try to avoid it?

Yes. Hope and fear are impediments to development.
How can our minds move beyond expectations of wanting our practice to conform to our samsaric expectations?

By taking Refuge. In this context it means we 'take refuge' from our own opinions, reservations, criticisms, demands and such, in that they are fundamentally faulty. We see things from an egocentric perspective, and that is like having malware in our operating system. So our perspective, most specifically about our practice, is completely unreliable. We see things from the perspective of mistaken awareness, and the practices are designed by beings of unmistaken awareness. So by trusting the practice we 'take refuge' in enlightened awareness.

And that goes for criticizing another's practice as well. We don't see their karma, so we don't know what is right for them.

So the correct attitude is to not struggle with your hopes and fears, but pay attention to the practice you are doing and let the chips fall where they may.
One method is to trust/faith you are on the right path your lama/teacher gave you. Forget where this path leads.

:good:
One way is to accept death and accept that it can happen today or tomorrow. if you can rest in that with loving kindness and compassion wholeheartedly, there is no fear or hope in that space.

:good:

There's a perspective in Dharma, it may be peculiar to Vajrayana or it may not, that practice works--period! The only variable is when it works. It may come to fruit in a subsequent lifetime, where a future incarnation seemingly has an extremely 'easy time' of it. No, all the work was done and is still effective, just lost in the mists of time. So even if you only have a week to live, your practice still has results. In fact, that is part of the reason whey we are supposed to meditate on the uncertainty of the time of death before every practice, so that we do it free from expectation of it ripening in this lifetime.

*********************************************************************

On a slightly different vein, I read something by Arnold Swarzenneger in regards to bodybuilding that may translate. He said that there were guys that would come to the gym and be absolutely determined to become a body builder, and they'd burn out. Then there were others that would start lifting weights to get in shape for anther sport, but found that they enjoyed it, and they became champions. So maybe if we can find enjoyment in the doing of it we will forget the goal and make progress, ya think?
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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