Emptiness and omniscience

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:12 pm

no worries, K. While you are sitting on the grass, a failed man, you might notice how big the sky is and a wind on your face and how giving up has removed your grasing. Failure is the best when you notice it. :tongue:

Giving life to grasping may be a skillful means for a while, but ah, notice the space ... then the grasping dissolves.

Shameless Old Lady

ps... the one who wants to know never will!
pps... but something can
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:31 pm

no, can't stop grasping. grasping dharma or any other distraction does not stop grasping. a slippery slope until there is no contradiction between inner and outer.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:00 am

Karma Tashi G. wrote:
I am an older man and not even a teacher! I have forgotten so much and so about all I can expertly do is sit in my soft chair and watch TV or sit on the grass and feel the warm wind on my face! All the dreams of enlightenment and achievement and understanding are gone -it is too late for me now, and my eyes have gotten dimmer! This is not indirect boasting, just sad reality of a failed practicer. But I know surely you will liberate all beings Last Legend! Why would I say such a thing?

:namaste:
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KTG

Thank you fo your encouragement. I am still learning to lessen my suffering.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:20 am

There are few that are really bothered by suffering. Rest is just looking for hedonistic bliss, or miraculous omniscience. And there are those terrified by reincarnation stories and unlucky rebirth forever. Until one honestly reveals his goals, he is just fooling himself. There is no sufferer, only suffering (and not even that), no blessed just bliss (and not even that), no one empty just emptiness (and not even that).
Just this "ability" to project suffering, bliss etc... which we call mind.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:30 am

oushi wrote:There are few that are really bothered by suffering. Rest is just looking for hedonistic bliss, or miraculous omniscience. And there are those terrified by reincarnation stories and unlucky rebirth forever. Until one honestly reveals his goals, he is just fooling himself. There is no sufferer, only suffering (and not even that), no blessed just bliss (and not even that), no one empty just emptiness (and not even that).
Just this "ability" to project suffering, bliss etc... which we call mind.


What's wrong with the wish to become Buddha (liberation from suffering)?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:43 am

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:There are few that are really bothered by suffering. Rest is just looking for hedonistic bliss, or miraculous omniscience. And there are those terrified by reincarnation stories and unlucky rebirth forever. Until one honestly reveals his goals, he is just fooling himself. There is no sufferer, only suffering (and not even that), no blessed just bliss (and not even that), no one empty just emptiness (and not even that).
Just this "ability" to project suffering, bliss etc... which we call mind.


What's wrong with the wish to become Buddha (liberation from suffering)?

Because it is a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Who is the one that will be liberated? :shrug:
Who is the one that wishes to become a Buddha. What is he now?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:46 am

oushi wrote:

Because it is a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Who is the one that will be liberated? :shrug:
Who is the one that wishes to become a Buddha. What is he now?


Then why are we even having this conversation?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:53 am

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:

Because it is a desire that cannot be fulfilled. Who is the one that will be liberated? :shrug:
Who is the one that wishes to become a Buddha. What is he now?


Then why are we even having this conversation?

A better question would be, why is this conversation taking place? Do you really want to know, or maybe you can see now that it really does not matter?
You can see that there is contradiction in your desire, or at least it is unclear. There is liberation, but the self is the link that needs to be severed, and it is not done through becoming.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:18 am

LastLegend wrote:Then why are we even having this conversation?
To waste your time and energy in pointless and meaningless verbal acrobatics.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:49 am

It can appear in perceptions as all practices ( who is there practicing what?) are just nothing which then turns in nihilism, can be dangerous, since there are ( intellectually understood by reading) no beings..., while a variety of suffering need a variety of placebo or wholesome phenomena/methods to awaken as all experiences are dream, there is nothing wrong, it is only dream even nightmares can make the dreaming experience...being as a real nightmare.

While there is nothing wrong, dreamer often don't know to be dreaming one, dreaming its solid world.

Then possible it can be known a bit but it is like sitting behind the prison door seeing the open free sky, while not recognizing through overwhelming experiences that the door isn't other than part of the dream. When then compassionate awaken nature says for example: whatever there is, it pass (impermanence), then the door I guess, even never been, can fade. Therefore a variety is needful, even I can imagine suffering dream knowing there is dream, with the wish to be free/awaken, is appreciating whatever help.

Buddha:awaken.

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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:01 pm

It is not about hopping to see the world in such a way that it looks perfect and there are no problems. Nor is it about changing the world. It's about the "self" and its place in this great riddle. Self cannot be liberated because it cannot be found. Those "doors" may dissolve but it will release no one. The answer is simple, but nobody (no "I") will accept it because it would be the end of this conceptual "I". In other words "I/you/they" are not interested in liberation. "I/you/they" are only interested in removing experiences labeled as unpleasant, and replacing them with pleasant ones. That's what we've been doing all our life and Buddhism, spirituality or money... are just different method to achieve it. That which the Buddha pointed to cannot be attained from outside. It is a result of honest battle with yourself. Rest is just a fairy tale growing around it.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:14 pm

The door is symbol as cut of inner-outer duality. Yes, no one will be released.

:namaste:
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:23 pm

muni wrote:The door is symbol as cut of inner-outer duality. Yes, no one will be released.

:namaste:

Isn't, bringing importance to those doors, that which creates the duality? Isn't perceiving duality as a wrong, that which creates the problem? Escape from duality (unpleasant) into oneness (pleasant), by removing an imagined obstacles, which at the end creates duality... Mind gymnastics, nothing more.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:25 pm

oushi wrote:A better question would be, why is this conversation taking place? Do you really want to know, or maybe you can see now that it really does not matter?
You can see that there is contradiction in your desire, or at least it is unclear. There is liberation, but the self is the link that needs to be severed, and it is not done through becoming.

Wish to become Buddha is implicit in the instruction of non-grasping. But there is explicit wish to become Buddha, which can be used to ask Buddha (s) Bodhisattva (s) for guidance.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:31 pm

LastLegend wrote:But there is explicit wish to become Buddha, which can be used to ask Buddha (s) Bodhisattva (s) for guidance.

It's a idea that I will leave to your judgement. Decide whether you see it as useful or not. :anjali:
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:25 pm

oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:But there is explicit wish to become Buddha, which can be used to ask Buddha (s) Bodhisattva (s) for guidance.

It's a idea that I will leave to your judgement. Decide whether you see it as useful or not. :anjali:

If one does not need guidance from Buddha, then it is not useful. But it is useful to those who are asking for guidance.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Nothing » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:47 pm

oushi wrote:
muni wrote:The door is symbol as cut of inner-outer duality. Yes, no one will be released.

Isn't, bringing importance to those doors, that which creates the duality? Isn't perceiving duality as a wrong, that which creates the problem? Escape from duality (unpleasant) into oneness (pleasant), by removing an imagined obstacles, which at the end creates duality... Mind gymnastics, nothing more.

Oushi, from my interpretation of what muni quoted above is the door itself, which is made up of samsara/nivara (outer duality) and there is an "inner" which is BEYOND.....right through the middle.

From what others here are also suggesting too.....does this correspond?

If one were to say that there is emptiness in everything.....then would that not mean one is attached or clinging to the word itself rather than going "beyond".....as what Sherab Dorje were trying to suggest the "heart Sutra" earlier.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:56 pm

oushi wrote:
muni wrote:The door is symbol as cut of inner-outer duality. Yes, no one will be released.

:namaste:

Isn't, bringing importance to those doors, that which creates the duality? Isn't perceiving duality as a wrong, that which creates the problem? Escape from duality (unpleasant) into oneness (pleasant), by removing an imagined obstacles, which at the end creates duality... Mind gymnastics, nothing more.


A mature view does not perceive duality as wrong... agree this paradisical view is not helpful or real. Concepts about escape are not real. Life as we know it is dualistic. There are skillful means for living in this earthly plane for dissolving duality like seeing the grasping, seeing the judgements, etc. but it is not the final dissolution. The whole catastrophe is a suchness, as it is... it's the adding of concept that adds to suffering.... it's no more than painting the prison walls without noticing the space, just the space found in suffering and bliss.

We are spiritual beings and awakening is our spiritual inheritance. Most people that I know who are awakened to some degree are not finding so much bliss... it's seeing the whole thing and resting in the view... takes some getting used to.

Nonduality is also a concept, but a useful one. It gives us a whiff. Nonduality does not mean not duality. Emptiness does not mean void, it points to impermanence including the one who is viewing... no fixed sense of self, a natural flow, the tao... as such the colors and textures are free to be completely outrageous and pass quickly by without attachments. ENJOY!
Last edited by Lindama on Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:57 pm

oushi wrote:Isn't, bringing importance to those doors, that which creates the duality? Isn't perceiving duality as a wrong, that which creates the problem? Escape from duality (unpleasant) into oneness (pleasant), by removing an imagined obstacles, which at the end creates duality... Mind gymnastics, nothing more.



It is not about wrong, unpleasant, or pleasant. From what I see, awake in dreams and stop walking on the wrong path. If you get lost on a road and aware of it, simply walk away from that road (samsara)? Is there desire or grasping exerting there?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:17 pm

oushi wrote:Mind gymnastics, nothing more.


I've listening to Linjìi in Vietnamese. There is a saying, Vô sở trụ. Vô sở đắc. Còn gì để nói? (Translated by me), "No abiding, no achieving. What is more to say or think?"
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