Emptiness and omniscience

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:13 am

oushi wrote:To get out of the trap, you need to first see it, because what makes the trap is the desire to get out of it. Very difficult situation, that is why only few succeeded.


Buddhadharma cannot be penetrated by thinking, and so all worldly dharmas. Why can't you stop grasping?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:23 am

LastLegend wrote:Buddhadharma cannot be penetrated by thinking, and so all worldly dharmas. Why can't you stop grasping?

Because you do not believe it. You can grasp at many things, so how could you believe it? That is why contemplating the meaning of grasping comes handy. What does it mean that phenomena are ungraspable?
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:28 am

oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Buddhadharma cannot be penetrated by thinking, and so all worldly dharmas. Why can't you stop grasping?

Because you do not believe it. You can grasp at many things, so how could you believe it? That is why contemplating the meaning of grasping comes handy. What does it mean that phenomena are ungraspable?


Does it have to have a meaning?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:33 am

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Buddhadharma cannot be penetrated by thinking, and so all worldly dharmas. Why can't you stop grasping?

Because you do not believe it. You can grasp at many things, so how could you believe it? That is why contemplating the meaning of grasping comes handy. What does it mean that phenomena are ungraspable?


Does it have to have a meaning?

What does it mean that something has a meaning? What does it mean that somethings means something? Those are the questions I was asking myself. What do you think?
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:36 am

oushi wrote:What does it mean that something has a meaning? What does it mean that somethings means something? Those are the questions I was asking myself. What do you think?


Is a meaning conceptual?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:37 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:if emptiness is not remedy to samsara then i can throw my practice into the gutter since there is no other way to be realeased from samsara other than realizing as an emptiness.
Samsara is something other than emptiness (dependent arising)? Now you really have to come up with a quote! :smile:

PS It seems to me that your disencantment with Vajrayana (in another thread you started) may be based in a fundamental misinterpretation of some very basic concepts. Your misunderstanding may the cause of the dissonance rather than Vajrayana per se.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9273
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 am

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:What does it mean that something has a meaning? What does it mean that somethings means something? Those are the questions I was asking myself. What do you think?


Is a meaning conceptual?

Absolutely.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:What other way is there to consider omniscience then knowledge of all things (dharmas). Let's be clear that dharmas include mental "forms" too.

Emptiness and appearances occur together without contradictions...

Establish the Emptiness of Inner and Outer Phenomena
Clinging to the notion that phenomena truly exist
Is clinging to the notion of subject and object.
All the objects one apprehends, outer and inner phenomena,
Are illusory appearances resulting from habitual tendencies.
Like visual aberrations,
Like reflections of the moon in water and like mistaken perceptions,
When unexamined they are taken for granted;
When examined they are seen to be nothing at all.
http://shop1338.hiwinner.hinet.net/ec99 ... d_rr8.html

Awaken master/nature 'invites' in nature. Master-student.
muni
 
Posts: 2874
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:25 pm

muni wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:What other way is there to consider omniscience then knowledge of all things (dharmas). Let's be clear that dharmas include mental "forms" too.

Emptiness and appearances occur together without contradictions...

Establish the Emptiness of Inner and Outer Phenomena
Clinging to the notion that phenomena truly exist
Is clinging to the notion of subject and object.
All the objects one apprehends, outer and inner phenomena,
Are illusory appearances resulting from habitual tendencies.
Like visual aberrations,
Like reflections of the moon in water and like mistaken perceptions,
When unexamined they are taken for granted;
When examined they are seen to be nothing at all.
http://shop1338.hiwinner.hinet.net/ec99 ... d_rr8.html

Awaken master/nature 'invites' in nature. Master-student.


"Emptiness and appearances occur together without contradictions..."

good working view of omniscience which can't be experienced by the linear mind, yet expressible

another good view of omniscience:

Subhuti: How can there be a non-viewing of form, etc.?

The Lord: Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata. It is thus that perfect
wisdom acts as an instructress in the world to the Tathagatas. And how does
perfect wisdom show up the world for what it is? She shows that the world is
empty, unthinkable, calmly quiet. As purified of itself she shows up the world, she
makes it known, she indicates it.
Lindama
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:43 pm

oushi wrote:
muni wrote:As wave is surrendering itself = dissolving in itself, ocean is revealed. Thought surrendering itself; dissolving in itself in openess.

Wave does not surrender itself. It runs out of energy and falls.


That is called exhaustion practice. Surrender is a grace which we can participate with as an attitude and softness, yet we are powerless. As the sense of self dissolves, there is non-surrendering and we can't remember what was to be surrendered or why.
Lindama
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:if emptiness is not remedy to samsara then i can throw my practice into the gutter since there is no other way to be realeased from samsara other than realizing emptiness.
Samsara is something other than emptiness (dependent arising)? Now you really have to come up with a quote! :smile:

PS It seems to me that your disencantment with Vajrayana (in another thread you started) may be based in a fundamental misinterpretation of some very basic concepts. Your misunderstanding may the cause of the dissonance rather than Vajrayana per se.


no i dont have to come up with a quote since i am not interested in finding one at the moment. what i meant to say that even if everything is emptiness, samsara included, i agree and i did not meant to say otherwise. but we in samsara do not live in or with emptiness per se. you can say we do but then explain me why do you still encounter samsaric suffering and why are you not enlightened. and what you said '' samsara is other than emptiness ( dependent arising )? i did not come up with such a claim, so no need for a quote. i couldnt find such anywhere since it is not true.

even if we live in emptiness and everything is emptiness, it doesnt mean that you actually fully realize emptiness, that is why you are in this vicious cycle. that was my point.

if you do not want to look at what i really meant to say, that realizing and actualizing the true meaning of emptiness is the only realization that will bring liberation go ahead and think otherwise. i dont think there is another way. if im wrong please prove it with some quotes or a logical argument, instead of trying to twist the meaning of what i said.

if you believe in inherently existing self or i, obviously you are not in any way connected to your true nature, that is shunyata, even if its all pervading you do not see it, you do not feel it, you do not understand it to a bigger or lesser degree depending on your realization of it.

again i did not say or meant to say anything that your conclusion was from my sentence you quoted. but to give you a question, if you are in samsara, how can you say you are fully in emptiness since you are misunderstanding emptiness completely so you are stuck in samsara, if you would understand emptiness perfectly there would be no difference in life and death, so there is definitely a big difference in realizing shunyata than living in samsara and saying '' it is emptiness ''. i dont argue with that it isn't, but there is a difference in having it as a conceptual structure some reflection due to that conceptual structure, and idea, and the full actual direct naked experience of it.


to answer your PS. dont go to any conclusion since you are wrong. better not to think about any reasons for my disenchantment with vajrayana since you do not have the wisdom eye so you cannot see or know.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:36 pm

futerko wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:everything is dependent on emptiness... i would not say it is not remedy to becoming since with it you transcend both becoming and its opposite. i agree it is the basis for becoming also but it is the basis of cessation as well.


I'm unsure if you are claiming that "emptiness transcends becoming" as if they are two different things, but I suspect you are falling into a dualistic view here.


yes i think that realizing the true nature of things transcends becoming, as it leads to cessation of becoming and beyond. of course it is a dualistic view if we talk about cessation and its opposite, we experience becoming as arising even if it is non-arising, if are freed by realizing shunyata you become free from dualistic confusion also. i wouldnt say that they are completely two different things emptiness and becoming but i would not say that they are not, since confused or samsaric arising definitely is disconnected from the true nature in so many ways so maybe it is not two but it is not one either. maybe when enlightened master takes birth it is one and the same but with us ordinary beings it is definitely not one and yet it is, but we are unaware of that on a fundamental level. it again comes down to the root of samsara.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:32 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:no i dont have to come up with a quote since i am not interested in finding one at the moment. what i meant to say that even if everything is emptiness, samsara included, i agree and i did not meant to say otherwise. but we in samsara do not live in or with emptiness per se.
Really? So you are not dependently arisen? Reminds of the Zen koan with the two fish:

zen fish.jpg
zen fish.jpg (84.81 KiB) Viewed 147 times


Emptiness? You are soaking in it! (Back to the water analogy)

you can say we do but then explain me why do you still encounter samsaric suffering and why are you not enlightened. and what you said '' samsara is other than emptiness ( dependent arising )? i did not come up with such a claim, so no need for a quote. i couldnt find such anywhere since it is not true.
Don't get your knickers in a twist, I just misunderstood your statement. I don't know if you noticed, but there was a question mark at the end of my statement (and a smiley).
even if we live in emptiness and everything is emptiness, it doesnt mean that you actually fully realize emptiness, that is why you are in this vicious cycle. that was my point.
It's mine too.

if you do not want to look at what i really meant to say, that realizing and actualizing the true meaning of emptiness is the only realization that will bring liberation go ahead and think otherwise. i dont think there is another way. if im wrong please prove it with some quotes or a logical argument, instead of trying to twist the meaning of what i said.
if you are in samsara, how can you say you are fully in emptiness since you are misunderstanding emptiness completely so you are stuck in samsara, if you would understand emptiness perfectly there would be no difference in life and death, so there is definitely a big difference in realizing shunyata than living in samsara and saying '' it is emptiness ''.
Saying it is emptiness and meaning it are two completely different things. So I agree with you 100%, realisation is the key, emptiness is there whether you are aware of it or not. That was my point from page 1.
to answer your PS. dont go to any conclusion since you are wrong. better not to think about any reasons for my disenchantment with vajrayana since you do not have the wisdom eye so you cannot see or know.
Don't need a wisdom eye to see which way the water flows! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9273
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:38 pm

:smile:

small fish, big fish

in zen, it goes: big rock, small rock
Lindama
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:59 pm

Sherab Dorje, i did not say i am not dependently originated or arisen. everything is.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:14 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:Sherab Dorje, i did not say i am not dependently originated or arisen. everything is.
Well, not everything. Our enlightened nature isn't. ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 9273
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:29 pm

oh yeeah, i almost forgot we had that :tongue:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Karma Tashi G. » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:16 pm

LastLegend wrote:How to stop the mind from grasping or seeking and trying to make sense out of everything?

Just stop it?


Buddha taught to rescue all things, all living beings, all appearances, out of duality! If you try to strongly stop mind then there can appear to be a duality- what is stopped and what is doing the stopping. Intentional efforts always wind up creating these mirage-like dualisms! But thinking about dualisms is okay since there can't be anything left outside of sincere devoted practice-not even thinking and pondering, debating and proposing!

Be a boat, a wish-fulfilling gem, a cool stream for all beings!
You will certainly do this!

:namaste:
KTG
Karma Tashi G.
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:21 pm

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:17 pm

Karma Tashi G. wrote:
Buddha taught to rescue all things, all living beings, all appearances, out of duality! If you try to strongly stop mind then there can appear to be a duality- what is stopped and what is doing the stopping. Intentional efforts always wind up creating these mirage-like dualisms! But thinking about dualisms is okay since there can't be anything left outside of sincere devoted practice-not even thinking and pondering, debating and proposing!

Be a boat, a wish-fulfilling gem, a cool stream for all beings!
You will certainly do this!

:namaste:
KTG


Not trying to stop having thoughts. But stop grasping is possible...what is there to grasp if there is not a dharma (Dharma) to be achieved? The mind is Dharma, and Dharma is mind. Mind abides nowhere, how can we abide it with a thought?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
User avatar
LastLegend
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Karma Tashi G. » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:08 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Karma Tashi G. wrote:
Buddha taught to rescue all things, all living beings, all appearances, out of duality! If you try to strongly stop mind then there can appear to be a duality- what is stopped and what is doing the stopping. Intentional efforts always wind up creating these mirage-like dualisms! But thinking about dualisms is okay since there can't be anything left outside of sincere devoted practice-not even thinking and pondering, debating and proposing!

Be a boat, a wish-fulfilling gem, a cool stream for all beings!
You will certainly do this!

:namaste:
KTG


Not trying to stop having thoughts. But stop grasping is possible...what is there to grasp if there is not a dharma (Dharma) to be achieved? The mind is Dharma, and Dharma is mind. Mind abides nowhere, how can we abide it with a thought?


I am an older man and not even a teacher! I have forgotten so much and so about all I can expertly do is sit in my soft chair and watch TV or sit on the grass and feel the warm wind on my face! All the dreams of enlightenment and achievement and understanding are gone -it is too late for me now, and my eyes have gotten dimmer! This is not indirect boasting, just sad reality of a failed practicer. But I know surely you will liberate all beings Last Legend! Why would I say such a thing?

:namaste:
Shameless Old Man
KTG
Karma Tashi G.
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:21 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Personal Experience

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

>