Emptiness and omniscience

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:07 pm

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:How to stop the mind from grasping or seeking and trying to make sense out of everything?

Just stop it?

Who will stop it? Mind? It will be like the thief pretending to be a policeman to catch the thief. Thinking is an echo of purposefulness, meaning, desire, or chase after goals. What's the point in silencing the echo? A new one will come and the next one. And they will be gone as quick as they appeared.



Maybe not thinking itself but stop grasping (seeking to make sense of).

"You" are that grasping and seeking, that's why you cannot stop it. By bringing meaning you perpetuate yourself into the future becoming. Now you want to become non-grasping, non-seeking being, but this is nothing but desire of the self to become, sustain itself. Look into your desires and see how does "I" persists in them.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:11 pm

oushi wrote:"You" are that grasping and seeking, that's why you cannot stop it. By bringing meaning you perpetuate yourself into the future becoming. Now you want to become non-grasping, non-seeking being, but this is nothing but desire of the self to become, sustain itself. Look into your desires and see how does "I" persists in them.


So what do you then if you don't stop grasping?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:21 pm

LastLegend wrote:
oushi wrote:"You" are that grasping and seeking, that's why you cannot stop it. By bringing meaning you perpetuate yourself into the future becoming. Now you want to become non-grasping, non-seeking being, but this is nothing but desire of the self to become, sustain itself. Look into your desires and see how does "I" persists in them.


So what do you then if you don't stop grasping?

Understand futility of becoming. Through impermanence or emptiness.
Grasping and searching is the fuel that lightens the self. Ask why are you grasping/searching, and maybe you will see a drunkard dilemma. I am drinking to forget that I am drinking. I am deluding myself to stop deluding myself. This is the vicious circle of samsara. You have to admit, you still have goals that you don't want to give up, right? :smile: And Enlightenment.. boy this one is irresistible.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:38 pm

PS The first line in the quote "All dharmas are indeed unknowable and imperceptible." is in reference to fact that no dharma has an immutable knowable essence, that is why it follows that knowing emptiness one achieves omniscience.

PPS I forgot to say that emptiness can be a phenomenon too. The empty space of a cup for example. For definitons of emptiness (or types/categories of emptiness) from a Theravada perspective one should refer to the Cula Sunnata Sutta and Maha Sunnata Sutta. For a Mahayana perspective you can't go past the section on emptiness (sunyata) in the Lankavatara Sutra.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:44 pm

oushi wrote:Understand futility of becoming. Through impermanence or emptiness.
A major flaw in practice known as "taking emptiness as the remedy". Becoming is dependent on emptiness, without emptiness there cannot be becoming. Emptiness is not the remedy to becoming, it is the basis for becoming.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:51 pm

it is the basis for everything and actually it is the remedy from what i understand, the only way you can cut the root of samsara is to realize emptiness, that from my understanding is the only antidote to cut the false notion of i, me , mine and self.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:07 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:...it is the basis for everything and actually it is the remedy from what i understand,
And water (emptiness) is the remedy for drowning (becoming)? No, swimming (realisation) is the antidote. Swimming is dependent on water , just like drowning is. Water does not stop being water in both circumstances. And swimming is not water, just like drowning is not water.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:26 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:...it is the basis for everything and actually it is the remedy from what i understand,
And water (emptiness) is the remedy for drowning (becoming)? No, swimming (realisation) is the antidote. Swimming is dependent on water , just like drowning is. Water does not stop being water in both circumstances. And swimming is not water, just like drowning is not water.


when you learn to swim you dont drown. anyway, i'd rather stick to what the teachings say that is the antidote to samsara than you trying to refute that with not very appliccable metaphor.

in bön also they take refuge in emptiness.

and besides when you realize emptiness and learn to swim you cant drown because you realize the nature of the water you become the water, can water drown into itself? you lose ''yourself'' there is no one to drown or swim anymore. there is just water.

what are you trying to accomplish by going against the teachings? correct me someone if im wrong but i think its made pretty clear that emptiness is the antidote and realization of it what releases you from this cycle called samsara.

and your metaphor doesnt really prove anything, it just makes a bit more confused that what are you actually trying to communicate with that metaphor.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:18 pm

The teaching on the error of "Misunderstanding emptiness as as a remedy" comes from oral explanations I have received on the book by Karmapa Wangchug Dorje "Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning" Part 3 Chapter 6.
MISUNDERSTANDING EMPTINESS As A REMEDY
Lesson 67
When impure thoughts like the three poisons arise, the
practitioner imagines that they are impure and are killers of
liberation and should be defeated with emptiness. After having
intellectually made a separation between emptiness and
the afflictions, he meditates about the afflictions as nonexistent.
Or, if he has received pith instructions from a teacher,
he thinks, "When I have understood emptiness a little bit,
I will use it as a remedy in order to get rid of the afflictions
and thoughts; then I will reach the highest goal, like the
absolute, or buddhahood:' To practice nonconceptuality as a
remedy for thoughts, is called misunderstanding emptiness
as a remedy.
You should not consider buddhahood as something apart,
to be reached after you have got rid of the afflictions and
thoughts, but leave the appearances unaltered, just as they
arise, not separating between good and bad, between the
subject being harmed and the object causing harm.
When emptiness is misunderstood as a remedy, the basic
error is wanting to conquer with emptiness on the one
hand, afflictions as separate from it on the other hand. The
immediate error is to use the meditation on emptiness as a
remedy for thoughts, in order to catch them like with a hook.
These two errors are eliminated by looking at the true nature
of what is rejected, and by effortlessly observing whatever
appears in the mind.

Which teachings are you referring to?

PS Metaphors are not proofs.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:31 pm

oushi wrote:Understand futility of becoming. Through impermanence or emptiness.
Grasping and searching is the fuel that lightens the self. Ask why are you grasping/searching, and maybe you will see a drunkard dilemma. I am drinking to forget that I am drinking. I am deluding myself to stop deluding myself. This is the vicious circle of samsara. You have to admit, you still have goals that you don't want to give up, right? :smile: And Enlightenment.. boy this one is irresistible.


You said by asking why I am grasping/searching, I will see a drunkard dilemma. But seeing a drunkard dilemma, is that not a conceptual trapping also?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:35 pm

reading that he just talks about the incorrect way of applying it as a remedy. unskillful ways of applying emptiness as a remedy. not that emptiness in itself would not be a remedy. and if you read it carefully i think he teaches at the same time how to apply emptiness as an antidote to samsaric suffering.

sorry i dont have any quotes to proof that the realization of emptiness is the only method to be released from samsara since this information is from so many different works and teachings and i think it should be pretty much everyday understanding for practitioners.

if emptiness is not remedy to samsara then i can throw my practice into the gutter since there is no other way to be realeased from samsara other than realizing as an emptiness.

Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:Understand futility of becoming. Through impermanence or emptiness.
A major flaw in practice known as "taking emptiness as the remedy". Becoming is dependent on emptiness, without emptiness there cannot be becoming. Emptiness is not the remedy to becoming, it is the basis for becoming.


everything is dependent on emptiness... i would not say it is not remedy to becoming since with it you transcend both becoming and its opposite. i agree it is the basis for becoming also but it is the basis of cessation as well.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby futerko » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:29 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:everything is dependent on emptiness... i would not say it is not remedy to becoming since with it you transcend both becoming and its opposite. i agree it is the basis for becoming also but it is the basis of cessation as well.


I'm unsure if you are claiming that "emptiness transcends becoming" as if they are two different things, but I suspect you are falling into a dualistic view here.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:18 am

LastLegend wrote:You said by asking why I am grasping/searching, I will see a drunkard dilemma. But seeing a drunkard dilemma, is that not a conceptual trapping also?

To get out of the trap, you need to first see it, because what makes the trap is the desire to get out of it. Very difficult situation, that is why only few succeeded.

Sherab Dorje wrote:
oushi wrote:Understand futility of becoming. Through impermanence or emptiness.
A major flaw in practice known as "taking emptiness as the remedy". Becoming is dependent on emptiness, without emptiness there cannot be becoming. Emptiness is not the remedy to becoming, it is the basis for becoming.

Once more, understanding the futility of becoming, not stopping becoming. Try to read with understanding, it often helps.
Sherab Dorje wrote:PS The first line in the quote "All dharmas are indeed unknowable and imperceptible." is in reference to fact that no dharma has an immutable knowable essence, that is why it follows that knowing emptiness one achieves omniscience.

If there is no immutable essence, what is the content of omniscience? You know everything about every change in ever atom of universe? Look at the second part of the quote where it is directly and honestly said that:
"They are also immeasurable, because
one cannot conceive of a measure of form, etc., since such a measure does not
exist, in consequence of the infinitude of all dharmas. They are also incalculable,
because they have risen above all possibility of counting. They are also equal to
the unequalled, because all dharmas are the same as space."

Where is the omniscience then? Omniscient fails to calculate? All-knowing everything about everything is an utopia that people desire.
Is you teacher enlightened (or his teacher?).
If no, then it explains a lot, if yes then ask him to give you the cure for AIDS and you will remove this enormous amount of suffering. Until then, we can suspend our debate.
KonchokZoepa wrote:everything is dependent on emptiness...

Not really, because that would imply that there is everything and there is emptiness. Emptiness is everything that does not have a solid nature. Until you find something like that, everything you encounter is emptiness. Ignorance comes from the fact that we see many things as solid, and we cling to them. If you investigate it deeper, you will find that it is empty. Then you will pick another thing and another... But, because you cannot investigate every dharma in the universe, even knowing some phenomena as empty, we are unable to tell that all phenomena are empty. That would be a lie. What is the difference then? The very fact of seeing phenomena as empty only after investigation. You encounter phenomena as solid, and it appears to be empty later. But when "there arises an act of consciousness which has none of the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, takes
place.". So, with non-viewing, the solidity never arises, and it never appear as empty also. Emptiness is not a special feature, but featurelessness. Realizing emptiness is not seeing emptiness in every phenomena, because there is no such thing as emptiness. It is a state of non-arising. In simple words, when you are sitting in a state of calmness and suddenly a phenomena appears, no skandha is triggered. No feeling toward that phenomena, no mental formations, no perception.. If any of those arise, it's only because there is hope to find solidity in the phenomena and grasp it.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:56 am

futerko wrote:I'm unsure if you are claiming that "emptiness transcends becoming" as if they are two different things, but I suspect you are falling into a dualistic view here.
:thumbsup:
The prayer to Gendun Rinpoche (a Mahamudra Master that was the teacher of my teachers) states that: Great effort has filled the mind with the nectar of oral instructions and through the stream of meditation this has mixed with the ocean of timeless awareness. The stream of compassion descends to fill the beings which are suitable vessels to receive it. To you, Gendeun Rinpoche, I pray.

It's threads like this that make the content of this prayer clear to me.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:24 am

Mahamudra Master: surrender. :smile:

Surrender unnecessary thoughts, analytical thoughts, discursive thoughts... as waves turning home in the ocean of timeless awareness.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:46 am

Yes, but...
What does it mean to surrender unnecessary thoughts, analytical thoughts, discursive thoughts?
Surrender them in what way?
Or maybe surrender to them, allowing them space and freedom?
Who is the one that will surrender them?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:25 am

As wave is surrendering itself = dissolving in itself, ocean is revealed. Thought surrendering itself; dissolving in itself in openess.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:32 am

muni wrote:As wave is surrendering itself = dissolving in itself, ocean is revealed. Thought surrendering itself; dissolving in itself in openess.

Wave does not surrender itself. It runs out of energy and falls.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby muni » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:36 am

oushi wrote:
muni wrote:As wave is surrendering itself = dissolving in itself, ocean is revealed. Thought surrendering itself; dissolving in itself in openess.

Wave does not surrender itself. It runs out of energy and falls.


It is metaphor.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:38 am

muni wrote:
oushi wrote:
muni wrote:As wave is surrendering itself = dissolving in itself, ocean is revealed. Thought surrendering itself; dissolving in itself in openess.

Wave does not surrender itself. It runs out of energy and falls.


It is metaphor.

Yes of course, but it seems that it's missed. It would be better to answer the questions normally. ;)
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