Emptiness and omniscience

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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:18 pm

oushi wrote:There is no emptiness even after realization... But you will not take it at face value, so I will ask:
Phenomena contain emptiness, or emptiness contains phenomena? Is emptiness a thing?
Read the Heart Sutra.
Depends on how you define omniscience.
So it depends on verbal gymnastics? Okay. I want to define omniscience as ignorance of the true state of phenomena. So I guess that makes us all omniscient. :rolleye:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:37 pm

"Maha prajna paramita 8000 wrote:Subhuti: But how can perfect wisdom instruct the Tathagata in this world
if all dharmas are unknowable and imperceptible?

The Lord: It is good, Subhuti, that you should have decided to question
the Tathagata about this matter. All dharmas are indeed unknowable and
imperceptible. Because they are empty, and do not lean on anything. It is thus
that all those dharmas have, thanks to perfect wisdom, been fully known by theTathagatas. For another reason also the perfection of wisdom can be regarded as
the instructress of the Tathagatas in this world, i.e. because none of the skandhas
has been viewed.

Subhuti: How can there be a non-viewing of form, etc.?

The Lord: Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata. It is thus that perfect
wisdom acts as an instructress in the world to the Tathagatas. And how does
perfect wisdom show up the world for what it is? She shows that the world is
empty, unthinkable, calmly quiet. As purified of itself she shows up the world, she
makes it known, she indicates it.

----

Subhuti: Deep, O Lord, is perfect wisdom. Certainly as a great enterprise
has this perfection of wisdom been set up, as an unthinkable, incomparable,
immeasurable, incalculable enterprise, as an enterprise which equals the
unequalled.

The Lord: So it is, Subhuti. And why is it an unthinkable enterprise?
Because unthinkable are Tathagatahood, Buddhahood, Self-existence, and the
state of all-knowledge. And on these one cannot reflect with one’s thought, since
they cannot be an object of thought, or of volition, or of any of the dharmas
which constitute thought. And why is it an incomparable enterprise? Because one
cannot reflect on Tathagatahood, etc., nor compare it. And why is it
immeasurable? Because Tathagatahood, etc., is immeasurable. And why is
it incalculable? Because Tathagatahood, etc., is incalculable. And why is it an
enterprise which equals the unequalled? Because nothing can equal to the
Tathagata, to the fully Enlightened One, to the Self-existent, to the All-knowing,
how much less can anything be superior to him?

Subhuti: Do these five attributes apply only to Tathagatahood, etc., or also
to the skandhas, and to all dharmas?

The Lord: They apply to them also. Also the skandhas, and also all
dharmas are unthinkable. For with regard to the true essential nature of form,
etc., there is no thought, nor volition, nor any of the dharmas which constitute
thought, nor any comparing. For that reason the skandhas and all dharmas are
also unthinkable and uncomparable. They are also immeasurable, because
one cannot conceive of a measure of form, etc., since such a measure does not
exist, in consequence of the infinitude of all dharmas. They are also incalculable,
because they have risen above all possibility of counting. They are also equal to
the unequalled, because all dharmas are the same as space.

I think all is clear now.
Sherab Dorje wrote:So it depends on verbal gymnastics? Okay. I want to define omniscience as ignorance of the true state of phenomena. So I guess that makes us all omniscient.

And you think that conventional definitions come from God? All definitions are relative. If I define omniscience as X and you will define it as Y, how can we find out who is right? Definitions are just agreed assumptions, nothing more.
We can either rely on authority, or check if a statement is logically consistent. Best thing we can get is logically consistent statement of authoritative person. Like this quote above...
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:33 pm

1. The Sutra that you quoted does not contradict what I said.

2. Redefining terms to suit your argument, does not make your argument correct.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:11 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:The Sutra that you quoted does not contradict what I said. Redefining terms to suit your argument does not make your argument correct.

"All dharmas are indeed unknowable and imperceptible." That should be enough to refute omniscience as having all the information about everything. It's impossible and not needed. How do you define omniscience?
Moreover, I do not need to redefine terms. It is still all-knowledge, but because all is empty, and "empty" is not build out of information, all-knowledge is not based on information. The same definition of omniscience, but different, deeper application.
For example, if the nature of everything is 0 (zero), then the only thing you need to know, is zero. And you know everything.

The closest term for omniscience is not knowing. It may be seen as contradiction, at first...
"Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata."

Your omniscience would be consciousness that has mental formations for support. Some kind of total mental formation having perfect view on everything. That is not the case here.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:04 pm

Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata.


I like this very much.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Jeff » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:14 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Ooooooopsss... I meant knowledge/relaisation of emptiness.

So the question is: Are emptiness and omniscience the same thing or are omniscience and knowledge/realisation of emptiness the same thing?

Sorry! :emb:


With the realization of emptiness one knows Form = Void and Void = Form. With that knowledge, one may focus (be aware of) any/all form. Focusing on and knowing any form is omniscience in the way you are thinking about it.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:07 pm

oushi wrote:"All dharmas are indeed unknowable and imperceptible." That should be enough to refute omniscience as having all the information about everything. It's impossible and not needed. How do you define omniscience?
Why don't you actually read what you quote? The very next line says: "Because they are empty, and do not lean on anything. It is thus
that all those dharmas have, thanks to perfect wisdom, been fully known by theTathagatas."

Omniscience (as we have discussed in another thread) is a quality of enlightenment. We are not omniscient because we are not enlightened. Emptiness is a characteristic (not a phenomenon) that lends itself to the attainment of omniscience. But merely being empty/dependently arisen (as all phenomena are) is not enough to bestow omniscience upon phenomena. There are other qualities that are necessary for that to be achieved.

So, before embarking on a discussion, and before citing evidence which apparently supports your position, it would be a REALLY good idea for you to have thoroughly researched the subject. I mean, holding wrong views as a consequence of ignorance is "excusable", stubbornly insisting on convincing others of your wrong view is verging on adharmic.

Now I am not saying that I know everything but, at least, when I use a term like "omniscience", I use it based on its commonly agreed to defintion, and not on what I believe it should be in order to suit my view.

Find yourself a good teacher to take you by the hand and lead you out of the mire of your views. Otherwise you are going to be stuck there for another infinite number of rebirths, again. Unfortunately for us all, ego is not a reliable teacher.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:10 pm

Jeff wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Ooooooopsss... I meant knowledge/relaisation of emptiness.

So the question is: Are emptiness and omniscience the same thing or are omniscience and knowledge/realisation of emptiness the same thing?

Sorry! :emb:


With the realization of emptiness one knows Form = Void and Void = Form. With that knowledge, one may focus (be aware of) any/all form. Focusing on and knowing any form is omniscience in the way you are thinking about it.
What other way is there to consider omniscience then knowledge of all things (dharmas). Let's be clear that dharmas include mental "forms" too.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:36 pm

"Because they are empty, and do not lean on anything. It is thus
that all those dharmas have, thanks to perfect wisdom, been fully known by theTathagatas."

I quoted this sutra to prevent anyone from picking one phrase and misrepresenting the teaching. All the time, I was stating that omniscience is emptiness. All dharmas are fully known through their emptiness. What is so hard to understand? To fully know dharmas is to see them as empty, not to know everything about their appearances, features, future, or past.
"All dharmas are indeed unknowable and imperceptible." Through knowing that dharmas are unknowable is how all knowing is attained. This is nothing but instruction on how to stop the desire to know and not grasp after phenomena.

You imagine omniscience as an ability to think about every phenomena, but somehow you missed the fact that "all dharmas are unthinkable". You have an idealized view of omniscience as a great ability that will undoubtedly give you power. Unfortunately, I am not interested in your dreams. This sutra is very simple and direct, but still you are unable to comprehend it. Sad, but I really don't care. I just see a guys that has completely nothing to say, beside hiding his fears behind his doubts and personal attacks. I pity you like nobody on this forum, and that is why I always reply to your questions while knowing your false intentions.
Find yourself a good guide, because you have problems with basic understanding.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:40 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata.


I like this very much.

Good, because it is one of the few teachings that is directly saying what is this all about.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:04 pm

Omniscience is transcendent, it is the true Buddha eye seeing the true nature of phenomena... a quality inclusive of everything beyond emptiness, selfless nature, lacking contradiction of emptiness and form, mind beyond existence and belief, and including them, inseparable, it's a view, it can't be taught ... only words tho. This is how non-viewing appears to me.

Wisdom eye is the insight into emptiness, not omniscience. The transcendence seems key to me. Many ways of seeing, wisdom eye, dharma eye, divine eye... Wisdom and compassion are inseparable... Lion said it well, above...
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby tatpurusa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:11 pm

oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata.


I like this very much.

Good, because it is one of the few teachings that is directly saying what is this all about.


Sorry, I do not want to be unpleasant with you, but i would like to call your attention to the fact that your interpretation of emptiness,
and of "non-viewing of skhandas" as a "way of viewing the world" seems to be very intellectual. We all educated in the Western way have this bias, but this is not the best way to approach Asian thought, not even Hinayana.
You don't have to accept my impression, I don't want to argue with you. But, eventually if you reflect on it, it might be of some help...

tp
Last edited by tatpurusa on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:21 pm

Ok, but how if not intellectually, would you like to view meaning? This text is not a mantra, it's an explanation. Moreover, non-viewing is an result of consciousness arising without leaning on skandhas. It cannot be done through mental fabrication, thus it's impossible to do it through intellect. But, to comprehend it, you need intellect. Without comprehending, we will jump from one flower to another in search of enlightenment, which we cannot even recognize. Intellectual understanding creates a framework helping you drop wrong ideas.

your interpretation of emptiness, and of "non-viewing of skhandas" as a "way of viewing the wolrd" seems to be very intellectual.

Non-viewing of skhandas as way of viewing the world, is Buddhas way. Why would you attribute it to me?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby tatpurusa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:25 pm

oushi wrote:Ok, but how if not intellectually, would you like to view meaning? This text is not a mantra, it's an explanation. Moreover, non-viewing is an result of consciousness arising without leaning on skandhas. It cannot be done through mental fabrication, thus it's impossible to do it through intellect. But, to comprehend it, you need intellect. Without comprehending, we will jump from one flower to another in search of enlightenment, which we cannot even recognize.


I mean "non-viewing" does not mean either "disregarding" nor "being unaware of", nor "not-percieving".
Just a thought ..
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby tatpurusa » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:27 pm

oushi wrote:Non-viewing of skhandas as way of viewing the world, is Buddhas way. Why would you attribute it to me?


Because we are all Buddhas, if we manage to drop the jail of the conceptual mind.
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby Lindama » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:30 pm

tatpurusa wrote:I mean "non-viewing" does not mean either "disregarding" nor "being unaware of", nor "not-percieving".
Just a thought ..


In the same way that non-thinking does not mean the absence of thought... nothing sticks
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:41 pm

tatpurusa wrote:I mean "non-viewing" does not mean either "disregarding" nor "being unaware of", nor "not-percieving".

We can compare viewing to looking through colored glasses. Being aware and being unaware are opposite colors, same for perceiving not-perceiving, disregarding, regarding. Non-viewing is not looking through glasses. Thus it is not being aware nor being unaware etc.

Because we are all Buddhas, if we manage to drop the jail of the conceptual mind.

Yes of course, but... "we" is a concept made by thinking mind, so there cannot be "us" Buddhas. Buddha, Tathagata, or Enlightenment are also like that. Just ideas after which we run. To give more drama to it, the very fact of wanting to become Buddha or Enlightened, or stopping the conceptual mind is what creates the self. Simply because becoming something in future implies that you are someone now. This is the only cause of self, as self cannot be spotted in the present moment, it is a consequence of desire for becoming something else....
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:50 pm

How to stop the mind from grasping or seeking and trying to make sense out of everything?

Just stop it?
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby oushi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:56 pm

LastLegend wrote:How to stop the mind from grasping or seeking and trying to make sense out of everything?

Just stop it?

Who will stop it? Mind? It will be like the thief pretending to be a policeman to catch the thief. Thinking is an echo of purposefulness, meaning, desire, or chase after goals. What's the point in silencing the echo? A new one will come and the next one. And they will be gone as quick as they appeared. It is better to start using this thinking to ask, why am I grasping, what does it mean to grasp, why am I trying to make sense out of things? And then shit will start hitting the fan...
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Re: Emptiness and omniscience

Postby LastLegend » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:00 pm

oushi wrote:
LastLegend wrote:How to stop the mind from grasping or seeking and trying to make sense out of everything?

Just stop it?

Who will stop it? Mind? It will be like the thief pretending to be a policeman to catch the thief. Thinking is an echo of purposefulness, meaning, desire, or chase after goals. What's the point in silencing the echo? A new one will come and the next one. And they will be gone as quick as they appeared.



Maybe not thinking itself but stop grasping (seeking to make sense of).
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