No coming or going

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

No coming or going

Postby Konchog1 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:31 am

I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: No coming or going

Postby invisiblediamond » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:38 am

It's good. Don't struggle. No arising is pure relaxation.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby lobster » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:14 am

Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:woohoo:
:twothumbsup:

Song and dance? Two thumbs up or down? Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:meditate:
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Simon E. » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:01 am

lobster wrote:Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:woohoo:
:twothumbsup:

Song and dance? Two thumbs up or down? Heat fades.
Nothing arises.

:meditate:

So why the big woo-hoo ?
Could it be that it is necessary to advertise the fact that 'nothing arises ' ?
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Re: No coming or going

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:05 am

Nothing is necessary, but through assurance doubt is loosened, which is always beneficial.
We cannot be sure about the actual result of such action, but we shouldn't question the intentions.
:woohoo:
Say what you think about me here.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Simon E. » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:39 am

The questioning of intentions is all yours.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Karma Tashi G. » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


Glass is like slow water...over a long time it flows! Physical world appearances is like slow thoughts...over a long time they form and fade! Really no difference between the two? As usual-this is me guessing!
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Re: No coming or going

Postby dude » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:19 am

How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:22 am

dude wrote:How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?
Because things have causes they lack inherent existence.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: No coming or going

Postby dude » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:41 am

oh okay so we're talking about absolute existence (emptiness), not phenomena
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Re: No coming or going

Postby oldbob » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:58 am

Konchog1 wrote:I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


My 2 cents - stay with the "flash" - don't sweat the "understanding."

"Although Tsonkhapa argued in favour of Yogacara views early in his career[29] his later understanding is derived from Candrakirti,[30] who states that conventionally there are entities with distinguishing characteristics, but ultimately those qualities are not independent essences. But since this emptiness is true for everything that exists, this emptiness may also be regarded as an essence, though not in the sense of an independent essence. Candrakirti formulates a final negation by stating that even the denial of svabhava implies ...

...that either oneself or one's audience is not entirely free from the belief in svabhava. Therefore, ultimate truth, truth as it is for those who are free from misknowledge, cannot be expressed by asserting either the existence or nonexistence of svahbava"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka ... .B9.85gika

Sooooooooooooo - Try relaxing into the flash / heat and just gently guide your attention back to this when thoughts of it is, it is not, neither or both arise.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby greentara » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:47 am

Thoughts come and go and you can't control or predict what thoughts will come next.
Standing in the shower singing away, water splashing down, planning the day ahead also reliving dramas of the past.
Suddenly I pause, the mental chatter stops, warm water gushing down, nothing, no past, no future, just aware that I'm standing.
Small as it is, it's a rare thing for me to be in the moment, in the essence of the second, no time.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:23 am

oldbob wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:I suddenly realized something yesterday. Hopefully, people will find this illuminating.

I've heard many times that phenomena do not come or go. I didn't understand this. Yesterday I was thinking about what Ra Lotsawa and duckfiasco have said about thoughts. They are empty appearances that neither come nor go. Then in a flash of insight, I realized that thoughts appear because of causes (past events, mental objects, etc) and conditions (the mind itself) but if the thought existed it would have to be a continuum. But, a fresh thought arises from nowhere and fades to nowhere.

Then in a second flash I realized that physical phenomena are the same. They neither come nor go, but due to causes and conditions, appear and function.

This also ties into what Tsongkhapa said about Dependent Origination (causes and conditions) eliminating eternalism. If phenomena have causes and condition then they do not belong to a continuum, therefore they are merely appearances.

I'm struggling with my obscurations to maintain my understanding of this, so I'm going to write it down before the 'heat' fades.


My 2 cents - stay with the "flash" - don't sweat the "understanding."

"Although Tsonkhapa argued in favour of Yogacara views early in his career[29] his later understanding is derived from Candrakirti,[30] who states that conventionally there are entities with distinguishing characteristics, but ultimately those qualities are not independent essences. But since this emptiness is true for everything that exists, this emptiness may also be regarded as an essence, though not in the sense of an independent essence. Candrakirti formulates a final negation by stating that even the denial of svabhava implies ...

...that either oneself or one's audience is not entirely free from the belief in svabhava. Therefore, ultimate truth, truth as it is for those who are free from misknowledge, cannot be expressed by asserting either the existence or nonexistence of svahbava"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka ... .B9.85gika

Sooooooooooooo - Try relaxing into the flash / heat and just gently guide your attention back to this when thoughts of it is, it is not, neither or both arise.
Does staying in the flash mean one is an Arya?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: No coming or going

Postby oldbob » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:33 am

Yes, I think it would be OK to consider yourself a spiritual hero if you stay in the flash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya_%28Buddhism%29

But if you are in the flash (the moment) then there is no name arising.

Tricky - those Arya's :smile:
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Re: No coming or going

Postby lobster » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:28 am

dude wrote:How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?


They can not.
No way, no how.

Does the moon arise because it reflects in the well?
No.
Does the reflection exist without the peer review?
No?

Then there is nothing to see :woohoo:
. . . move along, Nothing to see . . . :rolling:
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:30 am

dude wrote:How can any phenomena, physical or mental, arise without a cause?


It doesn't arise.
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Re: No coming or going

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:32 am

P.S...woo friggin' woo.
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