Simon E. wrote:...
The issue is the longer term viability of the ordained Vajra Sangha, and we will have to agree to disagree about its likely future.
Simon E. wrote:Well with ( genuine ) respect...you would say that wouldn't you ?
JKhedrup wrote:I can understand why some might feel that the monastic model cannot work within modern secular capitalist structures.
Indrajala wrote:JKhedrup wrote:I can understand why some might feel that the monastic model cannot work within modern secular capitalist structures.
I think the issue is that many westerners are willing to financially support the Asian sangha, but not a western sangha.
I would say this is largely due to romantic orientalism.
Karma Dorje wrote:I think the real reason is much more pragmatic: It costs a fraction of what it would cost to fully support a monk in Western countries to support a Tibetan monk living in an Indian, Nepali or Bhutanese monastery. Most of the people that I know that give to support monks are supporting them in retreat for not really much money... as little as $40-50 a month for everything.
Indrajala wrote:Karma Dorje wrote:I think the real reason is much more pragmatic: It costs a fraction of what it would cost to fully support a monk in Western countries to support a Tibetan monk living in an Indian, Nepali or Bhutanese monastery. Most of the people that I know that give to support monks are supporting them in retreat for not really much money... as little as $40-50 a month for everything.
Still, it begs the question ... why not support a monk in your own local community who you have immediate access to?
There's merit to be had in both cases, but in general I think the perception is that western monks/nuns are just fooling around and not serious, whereas, say, Tibetan monks are serious (this is likewise problematic).
JKhedrup wrote:I am not sure what to think. Obviously any possible argument I make could be construed as biased because I am a monk.
Though I might not agree with or even be disturbed by some of the things said in this thread, I am still glad they are being said because if we never have an open discussion even the tiny itsy bitsy sliver of hope I have for monasticism (and it really is a sliver, equal in weight to a teaspoon full of dandelion fluff) would be unwarranted.
There is some type of emotion AGAINST monasticism in Simon B.'s post rather than the indifference from many Westerners (which comes from our cultural conditioning and is impersonal). I would guess either he has had some sort of rotten experience with monastics in the past or feels that monks think they are "better" than lay practitioners, and is offended by the premise, though that is just a guess.
For the record (again-perhaps the 3rd time altogether- I think it needs repeating as people seem to be super-sensitive about this point), I have no problem admitting that there are probably many laypeople with a more stable practice and sounder understanding of the teachings than I have.
At the same time, in my experience with the exception of one lay master (Khamtrul Rinpoche (the elderly one) in Dharamsala) all the lamas in my life are monks and they have been shaped by their training in a way that inspires. So if monasticism is lost something truly unique will be lost- and that is a pity because the broader the selection of methods available the more beings cross the ocean of samsara.
A big part of HHDL's cultivation and impact is his monastic training and aspect as a monk. As an enlightened master, he must take the aspect of a monk because he realizes it is more beneficial than that of a layperson. Perhaps he understands his impact to benefit others would not be as vast if he was wearing Calvin Klein jeans.
Time will tell. If my thoughts are not acceptable..ignore them.
Simon E. wrote:If this is the Kali Yuga then consumerism and secularism are , I assume, outward signs of that, and are likely to worsen. But perhaps Spring might come in ways unexpected.
Aemilius wrote:Your are being unduly pessimistic.
greentara wrote:Aemelius, You say "Why do You fear the population growth?"
You can't be serious? It's like the Titanic, the ship is sinking and the band continues to play to quieten the fear of the passengers!
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