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the great rebirth debate - Page 114 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:28 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:50 pm


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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:05 pm

Hello Tilt,

Can you please explain what you are trying to say in viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=1940#p141427? How do those poetic phrases in Dhammapada relate to lets say MN130 or to technical description of D.O. in SN12.2 or to birth in DN15?


"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"
"No, lord."
"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
...
"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Was Buddha agnostic regarding post mortem fate?

6. Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and, after greeting him respectfully, sat down at one side. And he said to the Blessed One: "Here in Nadika, Lord, there have passed away the bhikkhu Salha and the bhikkhuni Nanda. Likewise there have passed away the layman Sudatta and the laywoman Sujata; likewise the layman Kakudha, Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda. What is their destiny, Lord? What is their future state?"

7. "The bhikkhu Salha, Ananda, through the destruction of the taints in this very lifetime has attained to the taint-free deliverance of mind and deliverance through wisdom, having directly known and realized it by himself. [17]

"The bhikkhuni Nanda, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities) and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"The layman Sudatta, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters (self-belief, doubt, and faith in the efficacy of rituals and observances), and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, has become a once-returner and is bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"The laywoman Sujata, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters has become a stream-enterer, and is safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

"The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

"So it is with Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda, and with more than fifty laymen in Nadika. More than ninety laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters, and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, have become once-returners and are bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

"More than five hundred laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the complete destruction of the three fetters have become stream-enterers, and are safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-17


If there was no rebirth after death, then Buddha wouldn't say that such and such a person has been reborn here or there. If Ananda who knew D.O. would believe only in momentary D.O. that happens within this life, then Ananda would not ask the Buddha such question. Question of post-mortem destiny would not make sense if there were no rebirth for non-Arahants.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Nikaya35
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:26 pm

Alex I agree with you . In the Nikayas the Buddha talk about literal karma and rebirth many times . Is clear that is part of his teachings. Claiming that the Buddha never teach both doctrines based in the Nikayas is a mayor BULL.... Infact nihilism ( denying karma and literal rebirth ) is a wrong view according to the Buddha in the Nikayas and eternalism as well. According to the nikayas the Buddha have 3 knowledges .( 1) The destruction of taints . (2) His past lives and (3) how beings get reborn in different destinations according to their karma . His followers asked him about the destination of others persons after death and he answers . In many sutras in the Nikayas the Buddha talk with devas and other Samsara beings . The truth is that Buddhism is a religion . Buddhism is a SPIRITUAL PATH . The teachings of the Buddha have things that can been verified by direct knowledge and experience by everyone and some aspects like Karma and Rebirth that can been verified by few beings . :smile: :smile:

Kenshou
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kenshou » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:56 pm

If we're going to be picky, I don't think nihilism is the right word. I believe what is often translated as that is ucchedavada, which carries the implication of a self which gets annihilated. It is possible to believe in a lack of literal rebirth without believing that there is a self involved, just as it is possible to hold the view of literal rebirth without a self/soul/atma involved.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha263.htm

Anyway, just a nitpick.

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cooran
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby cooran » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:15 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:09 am


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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:55 pm


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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:55 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:59 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:35 pm


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Kusala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kusala » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:34 pm

Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:51 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Nikaya35
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:04 am


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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:52 am

That is a very old friend you dredged up, maitreya31.
Yes, some of us are very familiar with Stuka and his peculiar form of bs.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Kusala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kusala » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:52 am

Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Lazy_eye
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Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:10 am


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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:11 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:52 pm


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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:14 pm

2227 posts!

I merged some other rebirth threads into this one big one.

I think this is now the longest thread not counting games, daily drops, humor, etc.

It goes round and round, like samsara; proof of rebirth (just kidding).
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